"Holly" by Stephen King

In this episode, Kelly and Nikki discuss the book 'Holly' by Stephen King. They share their overall ratings and impressions of the book, highlighting the dark and intense moments as well as the heartwarming and heartbreaking moments. They discuss the characters, including Holly Gibney, the pacing and research in the book, as well as the portrayal of Alzheimer's and dementia. The conversation touches on the COVID-19 pandemic setting and its impact on the story, the character development of Holly, the complex relationships between the characters, and the intense and suspenseful moments in the book.
---
Socials:

• Tiktok: @bringyourownbookpodcast
• Instagram: @byobookpodcast
• Facebook: @byobookpodcast
• Youtube: @bringyourownbookpodcast

---
What's your favorite Stephen King book?

Transcript

Kelly (00:11)
Hey everyone, welcome to BYOB, the Bring Your Own Book podcast. I'm Kelly. And today we are talking about Holly by Stephen King. So Stephen King is one of Nikki's favorite authors, as you could see, she's super excited. And this is my first Stephen King book that I've read all the way through. So happy to be here. Happy to say I finally did it.

Nikki (00:16)
and I'm Nikki.

Yes!

We, I do have to, for my own peace of mind, give the disclaimer that Kelly's first Stephen King book was The Outsider. And so that's why I also didn't like that book, but I'm so glad that you finished this one. And I am so excited to hear what you have to say.

Kelly (00:50)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yes, I'm sure I will definitely touch upon my experience before this book. But before we get into any more details or feelings, Nikki's going to tell us what the heck this book is about. So.

Nikki (01:09)
I sure as hell will. Also, look at how beautiful this cover is. It's like the new artwork or the artwork on his newer books is just gorgeous. Super gorgeous. Okay. When Penny Dahl calls the Finders Keepers Detective Agency hoping for help locating her missing daughter, Holly is reluctant to accept the case. Her partner Pete has COVID, her very complicated mother has just died.

Kelly (01:13)
You

Yeah.

Nikki (01:38)
and Holly is meant to be on leave, but something in Penny Dahl's desperate voice makes it impossible for Holly to turn her down. Mere blocks from where Bonnie Dahl disappeared lives Professors Rodney and Emily Harris.

They are the picture of bourgeois respectability, married octogenarians devoted to each other and semi -retired lifelong academics. But they are harboring an unholy secret in the basement of their well -kept book -lined home, one that may be related to Bonnie's disappearance, and it will prove nearly impossible to discover what they're up to. They are savvy, they are patient, and they are ruthless.

Holly must summon all her formidable talents to outthink and outmaneuver the shockingly twisted professors in this chilling new masterwork from Stephen King. It was chilling, I'm gonna tell you.

Kelly (02:32)
It was. It was indeed.

Nikki (02:36)
I was chilled.

Kelly (02:36)
Nikki was like, Nikki was like, I read this in a day. It was so good. And it was good, but it took me more than a day. Cause I had to put it down at times. I was like, okay, okay.

Nikki (02:47)
Yeah, we have different thresholds on like what is an appropriate amount of disgusting things to read.

Kelly (02:53)
Well, and it was just, there were some really dark, sad moments that I was like, I'm loving this, but I'm just going to take a little, little breather and then I'll come back. You know, like just a little breather. But I would say it, I don't think it took me that long. I think I, yeah, I think it may be seven days. Okay. So a week. Okay. Not too bad, but.

Nikki (03:03)
Yeah.

Just a few days, really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (03:22)
What were your, what was your rating? I think I already know, but.

Nikki (03:26)
I gave this book a five star. I will get into it. We'll get into the exact moment, but like chapter two, this thing happens. And I was all in from that moment. I had not read Mr. Mercedes, which is the first book that Holly Gibney, the character is featured in. But I had read The Outsider, which she is in just a little bit.

Kelly (03:40)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, I didn't remember that.

Nikki (03:57)
And she's also in If It Bleeds. So she has been a reoccurring minor character of Stephen King's for some time. And this is her first book that she is. Hopefully there's more, honestly, because I would love a series of Holly and what she does. The main characters in this Holly, Jerome, Barbara, they were all so nice. And Pete is like the perfect, like grouchy old guy, but you don't get to see him a lot in this book.

Kelly (04:10)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (04:26)
yeah, there, there's just so many avenues that this book takes. There's like the detective and mystery part, which was fun, the horror elements that he works in, which were intense. And he, the way that he describes things really makes you feel like you're watching it happen, which is such a talent.

Kelly (04:37)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah, horrific.

Yes. Yeah.

Nikki (04:52)
And then there were also really heartwarming and heartbreaking moments. And that just focused on real life situations and things that everybody has probably come to face at some point in their lives with family members or with themselves. So it really had it all.

Kelly (04:57)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (05:13)
I don't know, it was perfect for me. I've been waiting for like a book like this for a long time. So even if there were flaws, I can't point them out. What about you?

Kelly (05:21)
Mm.

Yeah, no, I gave it a four and a half and it was only because it did take me a little bit to really get into it because I liked it, but I did find and for me, I'm like, it took me a while. It took me a week to read this book. That's not that long. But for me, I'm like, why did it take me a week? You know, the very beginning, I don't remember what part suddenly I was like, I don't want to put this down, but then I have to, to take a break. But

Nikki (05:29)
Yeah.

No.

Kelly (05:55)
It did take me a little bit to really get into it. And then I was like, okay, I really want to know what is going on, you know? But I really liked it. Like I, I loved the way he did the chapters and how they were like little tiny bits, but all centered on a day. I really liked that. Like, okay, now we're July 22nd, 2021. Now we're going back five years, you know, like I really liked that. Cause I like little bite size.

Nikki (06:01)
Right. Yeah.

Kelly (06:24)
bits.

Nikki (06:25)
And that's present in a lot of his work, especially a lot of the work that I like. Duma Key does that too, and also different perspectives. Like a lot of his books don't just focus on one character. You're getting different character points of view and like different situations in each chapter.

Kelly (06:29)
Okay. Okay.

Mmm.

Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, I love that. Cause like, I mean, it can be done badly, but I don't think his was done badly at all. Like he's clearly a pro. He's it's not his first rodeo. Okay. So I didn't like the outsider, which you already know. I DNF'd it halfway through. I want to say like almost exactly in the middle because we found out who the villain was or whatever. And I was really ticked off because the outsider.

Nikki (06:54)
Yeah.

No, it isn't.

Yeah, I was too.

Kelly (07:16)
Yeah, the Outsider started off as a really interesting thriller mystery, and then it went supernatural and I wasn't prepared for it. And I like supernatural, but I was like, all the tension is now gone. I'm mad. So I just stopped. But this one, no.

Nikki (07:30)
Yeah, I finished the book, but I also felt the same way. I was really waiting for the, I mean, it happens in the first chapter. He, the main character is accused of killing a boy. Everybody's seen him do it, but it's not him. And he has this like crazy doppelganger and you're thinking, not Chupacabra. At least that's not what I was thinking. And yeah, I mean, I read it.

Kelly (07:36)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No.

Nikki (07:57)
I read the whole thing because I love my boy Stephen, but that's the only reason.

Kelly (08:04)
Yeah. No, like this one.

Sometimes it doesn't work for me if you know who did it at the beginning But because he's so skilled it didn't bother me because we had so many questions still to ask to like why are they doing this? How? What is the purpose of this? The liver, you know? Let me just say people if you have not read this book

Nikki (08:27)
Yeah.

Kelly (08:32)
don't eat while you're reading this book, okay? Because I did that. I did that several times. And then I was like, Kelly, stop, stop. Because I want to have a little snack while I'm reading my book. I'm my Kindle, you know, and I was like, I'm gonna have like some chips. No, don't do it. I was so gross.

Nikki (08:42)
Yeah. Yep.

At least you weren't eating like jello or pudding. Yeah.

Kelly (08:55)
refried beans. I love refried beans, but not not for this book everybody. It was just...

Nikki (09:04)
There's something about Stephen King books. We were just talking about this before we were recording. I'm currently reading my 16th Stephen King book. And he has a lot more than that. I'm not saying like, I've read so many of his books. I know there's way more that I can read. Yeah. I mean, I am young. I am but a young person. I have time. But saying that, I've read...

Kelly (09:22)
still a lot though. Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (09:34)
the gambit of like the spectrum of what he produces as an author. And as you read more of his work, like fairy tale, I felt the same way about fairy tale that I feel about Holly, 11/22/63. When you read more of his work and the first chapter, you can kind of get an idea of what kind of book it's gonna be. Is it gonna be like his like prolific?

work? Is it going to be like shorter? Is it like what was the vibe that is going to be happening? And so I just fall into his work now. I read the first chapter and I totally trust that he is going to get me where I need to be. And yeah, sure, some of them I don't like, but Holly, the first chapter, I was like, this is going to make me feel the same way as fairy tale and the Institute did.

Kelly (10:09)
Hmm.

Nikki (10:30)
And so I was just in, I was like, this is happening and I'm here for it. And I tell you, it was like two o 'clock in the morning when I started this book and Bryce was sleeping beside me and I'm, I had just finished, I think I was finishing like happy place or something like that. Yeah. And I was like, I am going to start Holly. I'm going to just do it. I'm going to jump in and,

Kelly (10:43)
my God.

Different vibe, yeah, different.

Nikki (11:01)
When I got to, so the first person that they talk about kidnapping is the other professor. I can't remember what his name is. His last name, he was, he was like Mexican though. Yeah. So they kidnap Jorge and they have him in the basement and they bring down the liver and they make him eat it. And I was literally gagging in bed. Yes. Yeah. It's raw liver.

Kelly (11:14)
Jorge, Jorge was his first name, yeah.

Yeah.

And it was raw liver, everyone. Raw liver. Yeah.

Nikki (11:31)
They want him to drink the blood after the plate has to be clean. And I was gagging. Like, I felt like I was literally trying to stop myself from throwing up. But at the same time, I was like, this is so good.

Kelly (11:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

reading this book and I go, and Scott was like, what? I'm like, this book is so gross.

Nikki (12:01)
Yeah.

Kelly (12:02)
I mean, I didn't feel well, I mean, as you know, I've only thrown up maybe five times in my whole life besides baby years. I can't remember the baby years, but I have, I have such an aversion to throwing up. I will do whatever it takes to not throw up. Like seriously, I did feel at one point, not like I was going to throw up, but I did go like, you know, like it just, some of this was so icky.

Nikki (12:27)
Yeah.

Kelly (12:31)
Like I have a highlight here, page 108.

Well, we're gonna, this is, okay, we'll get into this now. So, spooning up a mixture of raspberry sorbet and Peter Steinman's brains. And I was like, eww! You know, like, ugh! So, they're eating people. They think it's gonna keep them young and like arthritis -free and stuff.

Nikki (13:03)
Yeah.

Kelly (13:05)
And it's so gross. Like, it starts with the raw liver and then it just keeps getting higher and higher.

Nikki (13:11)
Yeah, so the reason they want their victims to eat the raw liver, it's a pork liver, so it's from a pig, and the liver, the enzymes in the liver are supposed to basically awaken their body to produce really good things so that when Roddy and Emily kill them, they...

Kelly (13:20)
Mm -hmm.

Nikki (13:40)
are getting the benefits from their meat. So they have brains, they make, this lotion out of their body fat to rub on their hands and stuff to help them with arthritis and their sciatica. And, I mean,

Kelly (13:55)
Yeah.

Nikki (14:04)
They're thorough with their research. I, what is her name? Yeah.

Kelly (14:12)
The acknowledgments,

Nikki (14:19)
Ugh.

Kelly (14:19)
That was also horrifying. The acknowledgments of this book, a section of it. You know what I'm talking about.

Nikki (14:26)
Well...

I want to say her name because I feel like she really like needs all of the props. I'm going to try to find it at some point, but Stephen King has a researcher, basically like a dramaturg that works with him and because he has a lot of money and he is a very busy man. He has an assistant that is just to help him research. Did you find her name?

Kelly (14:36)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Robin Firth. Claps for Robin. Yeah.

Nikki (14:56)
Robin Firth, my goodness, she did a great job. She basically, he says to her, I want to do a book on this. Can you just like give me just research? And so he doesn't have to spend his time doing all of that stuff. He can work on the actual novel. And the things that this woman pulled from the internet for him to use in this book were crazy. I would love to talk to her because I feel like that would be such a cool job.

Kelly (15:14)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Okay, literally I have said to Scott so many times, there are so many jobs that I'm like, I would love to do this. And I feel like I would be so freaking good, but I don't have a paper. So I'll never get it. Researcher is one of them because you and I can just go in a rabbit hole and find everything we need to find. I'm sure that there's things you need to know of how to find things, but like, bitch, I will find it. I will find it.

Nikki (15:34)
Yeah. Yeah.

If I can find somebody on Facebook from a first name alone and some random facts, I can find you information on cannibalism. I'm telling you. Like...

Kelly (15:58)
He said, I highlighted it because I was like, I'm disgusted. Every fact and historical anecdote anecdote about cannibalism that Roddy presents happens to be true. It's his conclusions that are false. So all of his like nutritional science stuff that he's spouting in the book is not real, which I was like, thank fucking God, because like, watch what you're putting out there, Stephen. But all the historical stuff about like the Popes eating.

Nikki (16:14)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Kelly (16:29)
people and shit like way, way, way, way, way back. It's disgusting and it's true, which I'm like, of course it's true. Cause medieval times like.

Nikki (16:32)
Yep. Yep.

They were doing lots of weird shit back then.

Kelly (16:39)
Yeah, it wasn't like Monty Python and the Holy Grail, okay? It was not.

Nikki (16:47)
Yeah, I mean, the... it's just crazy. And there's just so many things that I want to say about this book. I will say, speaking of the cannibalism and something that you kind of like see progress throughout the book is that Rodney, he is clearly suffering with the onset of Alzheimer's or dementia. And...

Kelly (16:49)
Yeah.

Yeah, right. Right? I have so many highlights.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (17:16)
even though they're murderers, I find that I found that very hard to read about. I have had almost everybody who was old in my life be taken by Alzheimer's or dementia. So to read about that, I was like, my God, so sad. And to see like his wife trying to take care of him, my God, I'm getting emotional, but like.

Kelly (17:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, especially because you're seeing it. well, because you're seeing it from his perspective, right? And like him kind of losing his trail of thought halfway and then being like, wait, no, no. Like, you know, like it was really sad, even though he was messed up. Like, it's sad. Yeah.

Nikki (17:44)
so sad. And then Olivia, sad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, and I think too, like, when you get that old, obviously, like, not to the extent that you're going to start kidnapping people and murdering them, but everybody I would feel like would start to feel desperate for, like, I can't walk right anymore. I can't do things for myself anymore. All of that. So to see him do that, and then after they eat,

Kelly (18:14)
No, let's hope not.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (18:32)
brain sorbet or whatever, he will have periods of time where he's doing a lot better. And even if that is placebo effect, if you find something that you're doing and you feel like it's working for you, you want to keep doing it. Which like...

Kelly (18:50)
Yeah.

Yeah. Murder, she wrote. Emily. Emily was the catalyst, apparently, from them starting, like, because he had all his research and she was like, let's do it. Let's give it a go. And she's very pushy. Jorge. Yep.

Nikki (18:54)
Murder?

Yeah.

Boom, cause she hated, she hated Jorge. Yep, Gonzales? Was that his last name? Anyway, she didn't like that he was gay and she didn't like that everybody liked his writing.

Kelly (19:17)
I don't remember. No.

Yeah, she also probably didn't like that he was not white because she is super racist in this book. my God. So there were. Yeah, there were so many words here that I was like, I don't even know what this means because I've never heard these terms, which is a good thing. But I was like, what? Like, no, Emily, this is funny. Like sometimes when I needed like a little bit of brevity, I would just think of my big fat Greek wedding.

Nikki (19:27)
Yep. yeah, and we'll, we'll get into that when we start talking about Barbara.

Yeah, I know.

Kelly (19:52)
Rodney and Harry. Rodney Harris? Like Rodney and Harry?

Nikki (19:56)
Yeah.

Kelly (20:02)
But no, Emily, Emily was a fucking bitch. I hated her so much. And there's something about, I mean, old men too. Like if you're a cranky old person in general, I'm like, what? What has happened? What? Why are you being mean? You know, I'm sure a lot has happened. You're older now, but like old women specifically make me so mad because I'm like, I just think of my grandmas and I'm like, how dare you? You know, like be nice and sweet.

Nikki (20:06)
I know.

Kelly (20:31)
And not sweet, but like, come on, like Emily was the worst. Emily really was. She was calculated and just awful in every way.

Nikki (20:31)
Yeah.

I know. And like really their ploy to get people was genius. Because who is not going to help the old, I mean, me now, I'm not going to help the old people, but so they have a, they have a powered wheelchair and they pretend the batteries and the wheelchair have died and they need a young person or somebody to help push them up into their accessible vehicle.

Kelly (20:49)
I know.

Same. Think I'm a bitch. That's okay. I'll keep my body.

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Nikki (21:12)
And so they're like trying to push them and then Ronnie will stick them with the needle and they pass out and they take them away. And initially they say that they were swapping the role, but Emily's sciatica gets so bad throughout the book that she's unable to walk really for large periods of time. So she ends up being the one in the wheelchair most of the time.

Kelly (21:21)
Some kind of drug, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Nikki (21:42)
which I don't know, it's like little details like that that I feel like really make a book real and stuff that like the deterioration of this couple throughout the book really, really just like hits you. And the book isn't super duper long, but it's long enough and the way that he paces it out, he's so good at pacing.

Kelly (21:49)
Yeah.

Yup.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (22:10)
you really feel the time and you feel the extension of time throughout the book because it is going back and forth and you see like their first kidnapping was like five years before or something and they only wanted to do one a year but then something went wrong with one and they had to kind of get rid of his body and so they had to get Bonnie. That's when Bonnie I believe is taken but...

Kelly (22:10)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

you

So I think what went wrong was the the Black lady who was a vegan because she yes yeah because she refused she was like bring me a salad and I'll eat and they're like you're gonna eat this fucking liver which was where yeah which where I was like okay what is it about this liver you know I was

Nikki (22:46)
yes, she wouldn't eat the liver and then they had to kidnap Peter Steinman.

And she wouldn't.

Kelly (23:03)
At that point, I was like, is this a human liver? Like, is this the previous person's liver? Like, what's going on? And then we find out way later, no, it's animal liver. But yeah, because she would not do it, they end up shooting her and they're like, what a waste, you know, they have to find someone else. And then Peter is the the young boy, right? Stinky, stinky Steinman. So sad, you know, he was like,

Nikki (23:07)
Right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And his poor mom, like, these characters, they just, he never misses a moment to just give you like heartbreak. And I know, and the, like, Jerome helping her and stuff was just like.

Kelly (23:35)
Yeah, that's why I need to take a break. I was like, so sad.

Yeah, I love Jerome and Barbara. I love their relationship, their brother sister, everybody. But I just love how sweet they are to each other and how supportive all his funny nicknames for her. Yeah.

Nikki (23:48)
Me too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I know. I know. It makes me really want to read Mr. Mercedes because all three of them are in it. And I want to see like, they do talk a little bit about like flashbacks about what happened. And there was an incident like in an elevator and Barbara was there with the killer and stuff. So yeah, she's young. Yeah, she's young. And I liked her.

Kelly (24:04)
Mmm.

Yeah.

And she's like in grade 12 at this point, so she would have been younger. Yeah.

Nikki (24:25)
I loved her stuff. I was really, I was like, he is not going to kill Barbara when she goes to Emily's. I was sweating, sweating so hard during that scene. I was like, she's going to kill her. She's going to drug her with the tea, the old tea that doesn't taste good.

Kelly (24:30)
No. Yeah, my god.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, I have a quick little story about that. So what happens in the book is Emily gives her 10 year old tea, tea leaves, because she is racist and is like, I'm gonna give her nasty tea, whatever. And Barbara drinks it to be polite. She has like a little bit and then when she leaves the room, she dumps it out. And they have cameras everywhere in their house. Of course they do. So they see it and they're like, whatever. My aunt.

Nikki (25:16)
No, no.

Kelly (25:16)
I love her. She, we were over at her house not too long ago and she offered us tea and Scott was like, yeah, this tastes kind of weird. And she looked at the package and it was 10 years old. And I was like, what are you trying to do Auntie Heather? I told her about the book and she was like, my God, not the same. But I was like 10 years, cause I had just read this book. I was like, what are you doing? You know, she's like, I never drink it. I just kept it.

Nikki (25:37)
That's so funny.

Yeah.

Kelly (25:47)
Clearly you never drink it. Holy God. But yeah, so we also definitely need to talk about Olivia and Barbara.

Nikki (25:47)
That's so funny.

I love that.

I know. Maybe we should talk about Holly. Because Miss Holly Gibney is the reason we're here right now. And she is, she's a very interesting character. She doesn't have a lot of the same hang ups that people usually do. She's a very reclusive person.

Kelly (26:01)
yeah!

She is the star of the show. Yeah, that's true.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (26:25)
which is interesting when you think about a detective and somebody that should be like going out and talking to all these people. And when she calls Jerome to be like, I need you to come with me to talk to the boys because I don't want to talk to them by myself. Yeah, young boys are scary. Yeah.

Kelly (26:43)
Which I'm like relatable. Yeah, these teenage boys at the skate park. Yes! my god. Seriously.

Nikki (26:51)
But she is a smart cookie. And the way that she finds out that Rodney, essentially just Rodney really is connected to these people, I mean, Emily as well, but like her rabbit hole kind of revolves around Rodney, is very real. There's no like,

Kelly (27:09)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Nikki (27:16)
lightbulb moments of her being like, my god, what about this? It's really super sleuthing. She's going from place to place, she's seeing photographs, she's talking to people in them. She's like really, it really comes full circle. And I just admire her so much. And the storyline with her mother was so sad. And like,

Kelly (27:18)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

my god.

Nikki (27:43)
The whole book starts where she's on a Zoom funeral with her, for her mother's funeral and because it's COVID.

Kelly (27:48)
Yeah. Yeah.

which this was my first book that was set during COVID. I have not read any of them because I'm usually like, I don't want to read it. Like we know we were just there, you know? But this, I liked how he used it because it was very much like Holly dealing with the death of her mom. She doesn't have her partner, like her...

Nikki (27:57)
Right.

Yeah.

Kelly (28:21)
a detective partner with her because he's sick at home, has to isolate. And she's trying to do this all by herself while she's dealing with the grief of her mom and her complicated relationship and all this stuff. But then she'll meet people who don't agree with her for wearing a mask, or they'll say something snippy to her about how it's not real.

And she has to deal with all that because it's like it is real and my mom just died from it and she also didn't believe in it and all this stuff. So I thought it was just really clever how he did it and also how it tied back to Rodney and Emily because they were also like, it's the flu and they're the science people, right? And they and they're also very bigoted and ignorant and all this stuff. So just kind of like fed into everything. There was a lot of Trump talk because Trump was.

Nikki (28:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (29:09)
in office at that time. my God. I'm like, how do you forget Kelly? But it was stressful, but yeah.

Nikki (29:13)
Yeah. And also just like the use of those like physical props to show what her mindset is just in everyday life. We would not have got the same feeling about like how regimented she is if it weren't for, I have to put a mask on all the time, I have to wear gloves, and then smoking being her like one vice that she is like, I know that this isn't good and I know I need to stop, but I need this.

Kelly (29:23)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (29:43)
Like I need a cigarette. But meanwhile, she's going in, she's like sanitizing everything. Gloves all the time. A glove is left at the scene.

Kelly (29:53)
Yeah. And it's very like, you know, it's her glove because she has gloves with emojis on it or smiley faces. Yeah. So it's not like, it's just any old glove. Like we know it's hers. Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (30:01)
that Barbara gave her.

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that like, he used it as a very good character device. And I, yeah, cause initially I was also kind of like, I don't want to read about COVID, but it really made the book, like not made the book, but it aided in a lot of aspects.

Kelly (30:13)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

It added another obstacle. Yeah, it added another obstacle too, because it's like, are you double vaxxed? Okay, or like, how willing are you to talk to me, knowing that I'm masked up and all this stuff and like, how can I do this or whatever? Like, I don't know, I just liked it. Surprisingly. But yeah, the yeah, the zoom funeral at the beginning was very

Nikki (30:48)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (30:59)
odd in a way for me because I didn't know anything about Holly at all. So I was like, what is happening? And I also, because I didn't know anything about her or timelines of her and the other books, I didn't know how old she was until like near the end of the book when she said she was like in her fifties. I was like, cause I pictured her like around our age. I had no idea. So I was like, okay, like this changes a lot of things that I'm thinking about because.

Nikki (31:05)
Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (31:29)
She's single. I don't know what she was doing before she joined.

Nikki (31:35)
Finders Keepers.

Kelly (31:37)
Yes, I was like secret keepers? No, finders keepers. But it was like a late in life career change that she was really passionate about and her mom wasn't so keen on. And her relationship with her mom was so upsetting to read. Like I could relate not to my mom, but to someone else in my family. And it was like really just...

It was just hard because like, we don't know her mom, she was barely in the book, we just got like, kind of things that she would say to Holly, Holly would remember, like think about things that happened in the past. And it's just like, you want to believe that her mom meant well, and the things that she was doing or saying, but it's just like, growing up with a parent like that, or with someone like that.

who's just like constantly picking or, you know, making you feel a certain way. It's just really hard and it's...

Nikki (32:38)
Yeah.

and she conned her out of a bunch of her money. And she didn't even, she wasn't even like really aware that that's what had happened until she gets all of this money from her mother posthumously. And she's like, I'm a millionaire and I can, yeah, I can retire and all this stuff. Yeah, the joke that she keeps.

Kelly (32:43)
Yes, yeah.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah, a millionaire walks into a bar.

Nikki (33:09)
She like never says the end of it. Yeah, the very end. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't really realize like how old she was either, because I had only read her in The Outsiders or The Outsider, not The Outsiders. Anyway.

Kelly (33:09)
trying to tell until the very end. She's like, you know the joke.

my god, poor Holly.

Hmm. Yeah. I also didn't read that. I read four pages and I thought, I don't care, pony boy, closed it. So.

Nikki (33:32)
Yeah. I'll just watch the book with all the hot guys or watch the movie with all the hot guys. That's.

Kelly (33:37)
Now there's a musical you can watch with hot guys.

Nikki (33:39)
I know I saw them rolling around at the Tony's. It was great. During the rumble. Anyway, I didn't know or I didn't remember from that book how old she was. So her relationship with Jerome, I was like, they are very nice together. And I was like, maybe it's not like super hot, but like maybe they would be together. And then at the end when she said her age, I was like, okay, so this is like,

Kelly (33:43)
I'll look it up later. Anyways.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (34:09)
she's really like their older sister and like that kind of relationship and like mentoring them, which is amazing. And I also love that. I just, I just want more of the three of them. I thought that like the, so Barbara is in high school, but she does research for them sometimes. Like they'll pay her like for a few hours a week when they need somebody to like do online research.

Kelly (34:12)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (34:38)
They're all older. Jerome works part time with Finders Keepers and he is, he's present for some of the book, but he's mostly available like through the phone, through the book because he's in New York because he got a book deal. that's a nonfiction book talking about his family history, specifically his like grandfather, I believe, or his great grandfather. And at the same time, Barbara is.

Kelly (34:38)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Nikki (35:08)
in the same town as Holly, but they don't really see each other, I don't think, ever. Until the very end, they're not in a scene together physically. They only text and maybe have a couple phone calls. But Barbara is a poet and she's very smart and she goes to Emily first when she drinks the bad tea to talk about...

Kelly (35:14)
No, she's busy. Yeah. Until the end. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Nikki (35:38)
I can't remember exactly what their conversation was, but it leads her to Olivia.

Kelly (35:42)
Yeah, so she goes there because Emily is or was the head of this writing program at the university.

Nikki (35:48)
Right, she vets all of the applicants for the finalists for them to vote on. The main guy, the main person.

Kelly (35:53)
Yeah.

for, yeah, for, yes, for that specific competition. But she, because she's like one of the profs, she knows Olivia, who also works at the university as whatever she is. She's also a poet. She's very celebrated, but she's like...

Nikki (36:13)
worked at the university because she's like in her 90s. She's a very old lady. Yeah.

Kelly (36:15)
Yes. Yes, Olivia is. Yes. Yeah. So, she goes to Emily because she's like, I didn't feel like I could just show up to this person's house, like Olivia's house, because Olivia is like super celebrated poet, like Maya Angelou kind of level, like renowned. And she's like, I can't just show up to her door and say, can you read my stuff? So Emily's like, well, I'll read it. And then maybe I can like pass you over to her.

And she does read her stuff and she like has her change a line. She says she doesn't like it. And then when she does meet Olivia, Olivia's like, why did you change that? You shouldn't have changed it. Don't listen to her. Like go with your gut or whatever. And she's like, I don't like her at all. Like she doesn't like Emily at all.

Nikki (37:02)
Yeah, she says, don't go there again. She's like very flagrant her warning to Barbara. She says, she's not right. Like not right in the head. Don't go there. She's like, you don't have to come back to me, but don't go there.

Kelly (37:04)
Yes. Yes.

Yes.

No. Yeah.

And she did say to her, she was like, did she ever ask about what the meaning of this poem was? Did she say it was about the Black experience? And Barbara was like, yes, she did. And it wasn't about the Black experience. And she says basically like, yeah, Emily is a racist. Like, you know, she's like, yeah, I don't like her at all. So we loved Olivia, you and I. She was great. Yeah. I want to say Anne or.

Nikki (37:37)
Yeah.

and her assistant. I can't remember what her name is right now.

Yeah, she has a medical, like a nurse that stays with her or is with her for significant portions of her time to help her like get dressed and make food for her and make sure that she's all good and that she gets her meds and everything. Cause like, I'm not kidding. The wind could blow this woman over. She is so old.

Kelly (37:51)
Maria or something.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. She went to the front door when Barbara first met her with two canes, like ski poles, and she had a fur coat on. She said, it's faux fur. She was so cold. She's like this big, you know? So.

Nikki (38:22)
Yep. Yep. And they just have like the most beautiful blossoming relationship because it does turn into a friendship, but it really is like a really hardcore mentor mentorship for her. And Olivia, there's this poetry competition. And if you get shortlisted, you,

Kelly (38:35)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (38:52)
get a lot of really great things, but if you win, you get published by one of the big five and it's a really big deal. And obviously you get all this money and everything like that. And Barbara's like, I don't know if I'm ready to do that. Like I've just started working with you and Olivia behind her back, sneaky old lady, submits her work and she gets long listed. And then she has to submit some more and she gets shortlisted.

Kelly (38:57)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (39:20)
And then she has to submit a little bit more and she does this beautiful kind of fuck you letter and yeah, and she wins. And I was like, boom.

Kelly (39:29)
she has to do an essay. Yeah. Yeah. Boom. But I don't think Olivia doesn't get to see her win, does she? Yeah.

Nikki (39:39)
No, she only gets to see her get shortlisted and then she passes.

Kelly (39:44)
Yeah. I like I texted Nikki. I was like, as if I'm crying reading a Stephen King book. Like I don't cry very often with books. And I was crying because she, Olivia really minded me of my grandma who's passed away in the way that she was fun. She was cool. She was very artistic, creative. And I loved that Olivia and my grandma.

they were both like, I don't want to be old, you know, like they were still vibrant, even if she was like, you know, she needed some help and she was small, but she, she was sharp and you know, you can't always help keeping your sharpness or not, but the fact that she wasn't just content to just sit there all day, that's the thing, you know, like she wanted to do things. She was like, I'm going to help you. You're going to be my last.

Nikki (40:24)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (40:39)
a student, you know, and like, let's work on this together. And she would stay later working on things and her personal support worker would be like, no, you got to leave. She's got to take a nap. You know, like she's trying to be mother hen here. But I just really loved seeing their relationship grow and blossom and everything that Barbara got from her. Like it was just so sweet. So sweet.

Nikki (40:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I know. It was really nice. And also seeing how Barbara stuck around after too, her and the PSW are like, now they have a bond as well because they have gone through this journey together. And it was just so beautiful for such a horrific book.

Kelly (41:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Seriously, like, really, I needed, even though it was sad, I needed that in there because there were so many gross parts, sad parts of like, people who go missing, how their families are trying to cope. Whether it's like Peter's mom or Bonnie's mom, I got so annoyed with Bonnie's mom and how she was blasting it on social media about Holly.

Nikki (41:57)
Yeah, I know.

Kelly (41:58)
And I loved though how Stephen King would like pepper these little things in of like, Holly didn't know that Penny was all over social media about her services or like, you know, like, cause I was like, no, Bonnie! God, it just made me so like mad and antsy. Yes, like antsy like frig, or like, you know, the first time Barbara.

Nikki (42:09)
See ya.

I know.

Meanwhile...

I know.

Kelly (42:25)
Well, no, before she goes to Olivia, when she goes to Emily's house, she sees the van in the garage because they had the door open and he was like, shit, you know? So and we know like, my God, that's the van. But nobody knows about the van until way later. And Barbara is isn't she the one who she physically puts the points on the map so that whenever Holly gets it, she can see, look, it's all in this area because she's like, well, I have like a kind of mental map of it.

Nikki (42:29)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (42:55)
And either Barbara or Jerome is like, no, no, you should look at this. Cause when you see it on paper, it's like, what?

Nikki (43:00)
It's very, very shocking.

Kelly (43:04)
sketchy. Yeah.

Nikki (43:06)
Yeah, and then they ID it for sure from that little snippet of the gas station camera where you can see the bottom part of the van with the blue stripe.

Kelly (43:15)
Mm -hmm.

Yep.

Nikki (43:21)
yeah, cause they were like, it's up too high. Like why is the van so like high off the ground and all of this stuff. And they ID it to be like a accessibility van. And then that all comes together. I tell you, I was, it's hard. Cause with Stephen King books,

Kelly (43:28)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Nikki (43:48)
you can't really always tell if the ending is going to be good. So while I was very hopeful and like 97 % sure that Holly was gonna make it out of the cage and it was gonna be fine, that 3 % was very overwhelming of like I was so stressed.

Kelly (44:07)
Yeah, I know.

Especially because he kept changing perspectives. So I'm like, is she gonna die? Like... I was the same. Yeah.

Nikki (44:16)
I know.

I know, and when they were shooting the gun at her. So I guess to back up, she parks down the street from their home and she's going there and she's peeking in the window and she sees the van and she goes, this is it. And then Emily comes out and she's like, help, I fallen and I can't get up.

Kelly (44:36)
Ugh.

Nikki (44:38)
of course, and she goes over there and Emily has a gun and she gets the gun from her and she's like stepping on her arm or something, I believe. And Rodney gets home at just the perfect time and shoots her with the drugs in the neck. And she wakes up in the cell and she sees Bonnie's backpack and helmet and she finds her other earring.

Kelly (44:45)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah, was gonna say.

Nikki (45:08)
in the futon and she's like okay well I think I've solved it but also this sucks this is not a good position to be in.

Kelly (45:15)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

And then she is a fricking badass and she kills Rodney with the earring of all things. I have a quote because even though this book was so intense, there were moments of funny little quips and stuff like he's funny, he's really good. There's some sections I was like, that's funny or this is a great turn of phrase or you know. And it said, so she kills him through the cage.

Nikki (45:25)
Yep.

Yep.

yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Kelly (45:50)
with the earring and she goes along his throat. And it says here, the earring is still in her left hand, which is now wearing a wet red glove. At first, the only thought in her mind is Lady Macbeth's question. Who would have thought the old man had so much blood in him?

He says, Holly also knows her Shakespeare and thinks of Hamlet. A hit, a very palpable hit.

Nikki (46:17)
Yeah.

Kelly (46:20)
I just thought that was so funny. Like shit is going down and she's like Shakespeare, Shakespeare.

Nikki (46:25)
I know it actually it really reminds me of my uncle. My uncle Giuliano, he was very smart. He is a very, very intelligent person. And he was also hilarious because he was able to very quickly like put things and reference things in places where you'd be like, what are you talking about? But it makes total sense.

Kelly (46:30)
Explain.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

You

Nikki (46:54)
And so when that scene was happening, I was just thinking that's what my uncle would be would be doing. And she's a very intelligent person, like highly intelligent. And the I feel like those were even though very funny, like some of the best ways to show that she's like she's thinking about a million things and she still has the ability to pop in those those moments.

Kelly (46:54)
Yeah.

Eh.

Yeah. yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, it probably keeps her like grounded in reality or like in the moment too. So she doesn't panic because it's like, I mean, she says something at one point about like not panicking because as soon as you panic, you're dead because she's like, you know, you got to stay alert and look for options and.

Nikki (47:28)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Stay alert, stay safe.

Kelly (47:44)
What is that?

Nikki (47:46)
I don't know. It was from like the war amps commercials or something.

Kelly (47:51)
God. Blast from the past, no pun intended.

Nikki (47:55)
Yeah.

Anywho!

Kelly (48:04)
I'm trying to see if I have another I definitely highlighted something that I was like, my god, I freaking love this. But now I don't know if I can find it. But he was just very clever. And I don't know why, but I was surprised by it because I've never read a full book, right? Like the other one I read, I didn't get a lot of cleverness or I don't

Nikki (48:27)
Right.

Kelly (48:31)
remember a lot of cleverness and maybe it was just that book and where I ended because I was like, fuck this shit. Like that was very dark that book too, or at least parts of it were. But this book, I was like, I did read the acknowledgments because I needed to know if he was going to mention anything about like, is this shit for real? You know, because yeah. But there was a part I did highlight that reminded me of Elon Musk.

Nikki (48:51)
Yeah.

Kelly (49:01)
Cause I'm pretty sure he does like blood transfusion stuff like to be younger or whatever. Like a lot of rich people do this shit now apparently. But in this fraught moment, he enjoys the taste even though he knows his own blood is useless to him. Any blood without flesh is useless to him. And I, yeah, I was like, this is some Elon Musk vampire shit. Like what the fuck is this? Like I don't remember if someone...

Nikki (49:08)
Okay.

Yeah.

Kelly (49:30)
like got rough with Rodney and then his lip burst or something or broke, I don't know, but like he tastes his own blood and he's like, ooh, but it's not going to help me, you know, like, so gross.

Nikki (49:37)
Yeah.

Yeah. I know.

Kelly (49:45)
was really gross. We had some touching moments. We had disgusting moments. We had scary, scary moments. We had funny moments.

Nikki (49:47)
and so good.

Kelly (49:59)
The only thing missing was romance. And I guess Rodney and Emily were the romance. It was disturbing.

Nikki (50:07)
but long -lasting.

Kelly (50:10)
Yeah, not exactly what I'm thinking of when I think of everlasting love, but you know.

Nikki (50:15)
True. How does she end up killing Emily? Does she hit her head against the bars? I can't remember.

Kelly (50:25)
no, she snaps her neck. Cause she's like trying to shoot her, like Emily's trying to shoot her and she left one bullet empty and she did it at the last one. And then she gets the last one and it clicks. And then Holly reaches through the cage, grabs her and.

Nikki (50:25)
Or she chokes her against the bar or something? yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then she's like, I'm stuck here now because now I can't get out. And it's not, it's like a padlock with a code or something, isn't it?

Kelly (50:47)
Done.

Yeah! Yeah! Yeah!

Yes. Yeah.

Nikki (51:01)
And so she's like waiting and Barbara at the same time is like, she's not calling me back and I don't know what to do. And there's her car. So Barbara goes in and she's like, Creeping, creeping around. Yeah. The door is just wide open. There's like a glass of water or something on the front porch by the chair. And she creeps in and.

Kelly (51:10)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.

because the door's open.

Yup.

Nikki (51:31)
she's calling down, she's like, Holly, and Holly's like, bring me water. Yeah.

Kelly (51:36)
And don't open the fridge. And then she opens the fridge and she's like.

Nikki (51:41)
She does it anyway. Of course. She's like, why is this so weird? They have like sorbet.

Kelly (51:48)
Cause yeah, God, no, but like I was thinking when Barbara was doing her sleuthing, I'm like, I really hope if something ever happened to me, which I hope it never does knock on wood, I hope you'd be like Barbara and be like, Kelly would never leave her computer this way. Kelly would never do this. Cause she knows. And she's like, Holly would never park in this spot. That's not her parking spot. You know, like I want to say,

Nikki (52:07)
Yep.

Yep.

Kelly (52:18)
I mean, whatever, he knows I'm kidding, but I would love to say, I hope Scott would think like that. I don't know if he would because I love him to bits, but yeah, yeah. He, he.

Nikki (52:25)
That's okay, I would find you. Just make him call me. Just be like, if something happens, call Nikki.

Kelly (52:34)
He would be able to get like 50%, then you'd be like, what was she, what did you last see her wearing? Why is her elastic here? She would never not have her hair up, you know? Like.

Nikki (52:42)
And he'd be like, I don't know. I don't know. Like, who, what, when, where, why, how? Scott.

Kelly (52:47)
Yeah.

Yeah, I thought of that like, no tea just.

Nikki (52:55)
Yep. my gosh.

Kelly (52:56)
I love him to bits, but let's hope nothing ever happens because.

Nikki (53:01)
That's so funny. We love Scott. He's just, he's not in it for the detail.

Kelly (53:04)
Scotty.

No, he, I, I am the very detail, detail, detail. And he's like, why are you stressed about all the little things, which is good. But I'm like, if you don't see the little things, you won't know that someone broke into my office, took the secret stuff and then went back to their home and tried to kill me or something. You know what I mean? So always be prepared. Anyways.

Nikki (53:18)
Yep.

Yeah, exactly.

Yep. Can't have amateur hour going on here.

Kelly (53:42)
This book, I turned off my kindle, but this book is pretty much like my living nightmare for all these keto people. My dad was super keto, keto, keto, and this is just like keto to the max. And I really hope that doesn't ever happen because wow, but that's all I have.

Nikki (53:59)
This is the next evolution of keto.

Yep.

Yeah, me too. I feel like we've said all we need to say. Obviously, people need to read this book. We didn't even like we've skimmed the surface of everything, but this book is so in depth in every plot point. So you really just need to read it.

Kelly (54:16)
Yeah.

yeah.

It is. Yeah. There is a wide cast of characters. We couldn't touch on even a quarter of them and not in like a Game of Thrones way where you're like, who the hell is this person? It's truly Holly is on the case and she's got to follow every little trail and she does. It is.

Nikki (54:37)
Yep.

Yeah, everything is important. Everybody is important. And every character helps to make the story what it is.

Kelly (54:52)
Yeah.

Yeah.

thank you so much for listening or watching this episode of BYOB. If you wanna stay up to date on all of our bookish antics when we're not on the air, you can follow us on Instagram at BYOBookPodcast or on our TikTok at BringYourOwnBookPodcast. And remember, Meatless Mondays are a good idea. So, just gonna leave that there. Until next time, see ya!