"Credence" by Penelope Douglas

In this episode, Nikki and Kelly discuss the book 'Credence' by Penelope Douglas. They express their mixed feelings about the taboo romance and the disturbing dynamics between the characters. The book follows Tiernan, who is sent to live with her step-uncle Jake and his two sons, Noah and Kaleb, in the mountains of Colorado after her parents' death. The themes of neglect, emotional abuse, and power dynamics are explored throughout the story. The hosts highlight the problematic relationships and the uncomfortable scenes in the book and the absurdity of the plot.

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Transcript

Nikki (00:11)
Hey everybody, welcome to BYOB, the Bring Your Own Book podcast. I'm Nikki. And this week we're talking about none other than Penelope Douglas's super taboo hit, Credence. I can't, I don't even know how to explain my feelings about this book. We're gonna get into it, but wow.

Kelly (00:15)
And I'm Kelly.

Nikki (00:38)
Kelly's gonna read us the synopsis in case you are not familiar with this gem of a book.

Kelly (00:46)
Modern love story for the ages. That's not part of the synopsis.

Nikki (00:49)
I was like, is that how they marketed it?

Kelly (00:53)
I mean, can you imagine? People will be like, I'm so ready for this emotional tale. It is certainly emotional, but alas, that's not part of the synopsis. So anyways. Tiernan de Haas doesn't care about anything anymore. The only child of a film producer and his starlet wife, she's grown up with wealth and privilege, but not love or guidance. Shipped off to boarding schools from an early age, it was still impossible to escape the loneliness and carve out a life of her own.

Nikki (00:55)
Yes.

Kelly (01:21)
The shadow of her parents' fame followed her everywhere. And when they suddenly pass away, she knows she should be devastated. But has anything really changed? She's always been alone, hasn't she? Jake Van der Berg, her father's stepbrother and her only living relative, assumes guardianship of Tiernan, who is still two months shy of 18. That's important, remember

to live with him and his two sons, Noah and Kaleb, in the mountains of Colorado, Tiernan soon learns that these men now have a say in what she chooses to care and not care about anymore. As the three of them take her under their wing, teach her to work and survive in the remote woods far away from the rest of the world, she slowly finds her place among them, and as a part of them. She also realizes that lines blur and rules become easy to break when no one else is watching. One of them has her,

The other one wants her, but he... He's going to keep her.

Tale as old as time.

Nikki (02:23)
Yeah, I think when I started reading this, I texted Kelly and I said, is this just deliverance part two?

Kelly (02:24)
Yeah.

I haven't seen part one, so I can't say.

Nikki (02:37)
pretty traumatizing, but so is this.

Now I wasn't traumatized, but there were definitely a lot of things that made me feel very icky. And I just like, I didn't feel were super copacetic and I don't know, like.

Kelly (02:44)
No.

Yeah. Yeah.

 Yeah. So here's a little backstory on why we even decided to read this. So my coworker told me about this book and I was like, what? Cause he said to me, you have to read this book. It's about a girl who gets with her uncle is what he said to me. And I was like, wait, what? And then he said, no, no, no, sorry. Her step uncle. And I was like, okay. Like slightly, slightly better. You know but I was like? What?

Nikki (03:24)
That's better.

Kelly (03:27)
And he said to me, I can't read it. There's no way I can read it, but I need you to read it for me. And he said to me, this would be good for the podcast. And I was like, you know, I have heard the title. I tried a Penelope Douglas in the past, didn't like it. I think I tried Birthday Girl at one point and I didn't get far. And then I tried Punk 57, which I think I read the first chapter and I was like, I'm out. Like it was just so badly written. I was like, no, thanks. Can't can't get through it.

But I I I I thought, okay, for science, let's do it. And I read this and I was texting Nikki and I was like, you gotta read this because it is wild. It's wild.

Nikki (03:59)
Yeah.

Yeah, okay, let's like, let's just start from the beginning. Starts off on a wild note. Her dad secretly has cancer she doesn't know, and her mom is so in love with her dad that they commit suicide together so that they don't have to be apart. Yeah.

Kelly (04:10)
Yes.

Yeah, no.

Yeah, in their bedroom, like in their home, with their daughter still there.

Nikki (04:31)
Yep. And she just, she's like, wow, they haven't been up. And she goes in and they're dead on the bed. Yeah. It's like The Notebook, but not romantic.

Kelly (04:37)
And they're just lying on the bed. Yeah. They're just like looking like they're cuddling.

I don't remember that in The Notebook.

Nikki (04:47)
When she dies, when they're old and he's like laying next to her and they both die together.

Kelly (04:53)
I don't remember that part. I remember them being old and she's like, it was us. It was us, you know, but okay. Yeah.

Nikki (04:59)
Yeah, she has Alzheimer's. Anyway, it's not like the Notebook it is, but it's not.

Kelly (05:04)
No. So this happens in the first chapter. Like, she's looking out the window and she sees a tire swing and she's like, such fun memories of this tire swing, except not for me. That tire swing's not for me, it's for my mom. My dad used to push my mom on this tire swing. Like, literally, did you get Pretty Little Liars vibes? Like, very dramatic. Like, I just picture her waking up, full makeup, like, you know?

Nikki (05:32)
Got a secret, can you keep it?

Kelly (05:36)
she kept it. She kept some secret.

Nikki (05:39)
She's got three secrets.

Kelly (05:42)
And we're jumping ahead. I can't get there yet, but.

Nikki (05:46)
So yeah, that's just wild. We find out she has been like crazy neglected by her parents in terms of like emotional stimulation from them. And because of that, she can't hug people and she's very closed down and she can't eat candy for some reason. But.

Kelly (05:54)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yes. Please, that is the reason to eat candy if you ever needed one. Like...

Nikki (06:09)
Honestly, I'd be all over that shit. Her uncle calls her right away, even though step uncle.

Kelly (06:15)
Step uncle.

Nikki (06:20)
I'm just gonna say uncle for the purposes of this video. Disclaimer, I mean step uncle. He calls her right away.

Kelly (06:20)
Yeah.

Sorry, we forgot to mention her parents were loaded and famous. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Nikki (06:32)
yeah, they're like famous people. Because of course, this couldn't have been about like regular people. Had to be about famous people to make it okay. He calls her like three minutes after it happens and he's like, he's like, it's me. I'm your uncle. Well, your step uncle. You can come here, but you don't have to because you can do what you want. You're basically 18.

Kelly (06:40)
no. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Nikki (07:01)
And then she decides, I need a change. And so she goes to butt fuck nowhere in Utah or Colorado or like somewhere with mountains. And she goes up that mountain and she never comes back. I'm kidding, she does, but like basically.

Kelly (07:05)
Yeah.

Colorado. Yeah. Colorado.

 closest person she has to her before she meets Jake and her two step cousins, Kaleb and, what was his name, Noah? I'm like, who is he? God, yeah, we'll get to them. But her closest person is like her mom's assistant or something. She's like the housekeeper or something. Like she just, yeah. Yeah. And so she was like, you can live with me if you want.

Nikki (07:30)
Noah. Noah. The most normal one.

Yeah, it's her mom's assistant.

Kelly (07:50)
And the girl's like, no, I'm gonna go to Colorado, like start fresh. And they made a point of saying like, you only have six months before you turn 18. So you can either apply for, what's that thing where you're no longer part of your family? Yes, I was like enlightenment, no.

Nikki (08:08)
emancipated.

I think it was like, was it at only like 10 weeks?

Kelly (08:16)
No, it was six months because she was there for a bit. wait, I thought it was six months because, okay, wait a sec, synopsis, she is, two months, shy of 18. my God.

Nikki (08:32)
Yeah, because how are they supposed to have sex with her on the last night before the snow comes down if it's February?

Kelly (08:42)
True, true. This book truly had everything. There was Pretty Little Liars in there. There was Seven Brides for Seven Brothers in there. There was Deliverance in there. Dirt bikes.

Nikki (08:57)
I feel like seven brides for seven brothers is better than one bride for an uncle and two sons.

Kelly (09:07)
But it had the whole like we gotta get up the mountain before the snow falls We're stuck up here and they called it the peak not like on top of the mountain like the peak gotta go up the peak

Nikki (09:09)
yeah, it did. Yep. yeah.

Kelly (09:19)
Take a peek at the peak. Like, they took a peek. They took a lot.

Nikki (09:22)
Take a peek at her peaks.

Eww.

Kelly (09:28)
can't but anyways, she goes to Colorado. She meets her uncle, her step uncle Jake, and he makes a point saying to her like, don't call me uncle because we don't know each other. So he's already trying to be like, no, no, we're not related. And yes, but we should say, although this is a taboo romance,

Nikki (09:47)
but she doesn't get the hint because she calls him uncle through the whole book.

Kelly (09:58)
for many reasons, they are not related by blood. Let's just say that they're not related by blood. It's just icky for other reasons.

Nikki (10:05)
If they didn't get that from step uncle the 8 million times we've said it, you just want it to be blood relatives. I'm sorry, I'm just saying. They're not blood related. It doesn't matter to me. I still think it's gross. When a man who is 20 plus years older than you is inside of you and you say, uncle Jake, it's wrong. It's wrong, period, end of story.

Kelly (10:10)
Aight.

I'm sorry.

No, no.

Yeah.

And she's not even done high school. You know what I mean? Yeah, she's not even done high school.

Nikki (10:38)
Yeah, she's still in high school.

Kelly (10:45)
Just sayin'. Just sayin'.

Nikki (10:45)
Honestly, the timelines of things really just like, I'm like, why are you still in high school if you're turning 18 in like November?

we finish high school, like here, you would finish high school the year you turn 18. So I finished high school when I was 17, because my birthday is in October. But they just, like, I don't know what it is, authors love this, like, high school shit, but they want them to be old enough that they can do stuff like this to them without people being like, you're disgusting pedophiles or whatever. Like,

Kelly (11:08)
Yeah, same, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, I don't know. No.

Nikki (11:29)
 was held back a grade. But that wasn't discussed in the plot. What plot?

Kelly (11:35)
I

Well, there was definitely stuff going on but like Yeah, so we can't say there was no plot because there was a lot happening, but it was like what why how why?

Nikki (11:40)
lots.

Can we just talk about the first time she meets Kaleb? So we have Noah, the totally normal brother who wants to leave the mountain and live his life, but his dad wants him to stay there because he can't let go. And that's like a very typical father -son dynamic of like leaving the farm or whatever kind of thing.

Kelly (11:57)
Yes.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah, so they have a dirt bike business where they like repair slash build ATVs and dirt bikes like mechanics essentially. And Noah wants to race them, which is dangerous. But his dad's like, no, I want you to stay here and work on the farm and work at our business, whatever. Kaleb, she meets him one night, one fateful night when she's in the garage for whatever reason.

Nikki (12:42)
because she had a nightmare and she ripped her shirt open. And so she goes to the laundry that's in the garage to get a new shirt in the middle of the night because she has night terrors, of course.

Kelly (12:50)
Yeah.

Yeah, classic.

Nikki (12:57)
And this man comes in with a deer and he's full of blood.

Kelly (13:02)
Yeah, he is half naked, no shirt, bloody dead deer around his shoulders, like just like carrying it in. And she's like, you must be Kaleb, essentially. And what does he do? He drops the carcass and he proceeds to get up on her on the hood of a car and attempts to sexually assault her. And she starts screaming and she's like, stop, stop, stop, no.

And then Noah comes in and pulls him off and he's like, stop, man, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, what the fuck? And Noah says, Kaleb doesn't speak. And then she's like, does he hear? Which I thought was good, cause I'm like, hello. And so then they started saying like, he's got shit going on. He doesn't talk, he hasn't talked for years. And so now we've got the guy who wants to leave, we've got like,

Nikki (13:45)
Yep.

Kelly (14:00)
the troubled youth who wants to get away from home and never come back. And then we've got the troubled, slightly older youth who doesn't talk and is aggressive and scary.

Nikki (14:14)
He does like some really fucked up shit to her. Like he will act like very sweet in a moment. And there were times where I found not like overall, but like in a scene where I'd feel like, Kaleb is being like really nice. And then he just fucking like slaps her or like throws shit at her. Like he pins her down and writes slut on her forehead.

Kelly (14:18)
Yes!

Yeah.

Nikki (14:44)
and it's

Kelly (14:44)
Yeah.

Nikki (14:48)
It's a lot.

Kelly (14:50)
I really don't understand the author's motivation or thinking process where she's like, this guy's traumatized, therefore he will now behave as if he were an animal. And by that I mean, I think there was a scene where literally everything was fine and then suddenly he was trying to assault her again. And she's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, get off me.

Nikki (15:19)
Yeah.

Kelly (15:19)
And he's like incensed, like can't see straight, just like going for the prize, if you will. And I'm like, that's not normal. Like that, I don't know. I'm no expert. I'm just like, I don't understand the thinking process of like, this guy's going to go from like behaving in a way that you can like, kind of understand and like, you know, keep minding his business. And then suddenly, you know, like,

Nikki (15:26)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (15:49)
It was on you. Like, my God.

Nikki (15:52)
Yeah, the scene where they're cutting the boughs for like the Christmas wreath. And he's being very nice to her. And she at this point has kind of realized like he doesn't talk and I don't need to talk to him to communicate with him. We can just be quiet together and do this thing. And he's helping her cut the boughs off of the tree. And then he just kind of like rips her jacket and he's like pawing at her.

Kelly (15:56)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (16:20)
and makes her go into the barn and where he proceeds to have sex with her in the back of a vehicle. And I'm saying sex very loosely because she's like, no, but yes. And I'm like, I don't know how anybody could feel like that when you don't know if you actually have control over the situation. If there is a safe word for something and you can say no and the other person knows that

Kelly (16:30)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (16:47)
that doesn't mean no in this situation and this other special word means stop. Sure. But that's not, well, nothing's discussed because he doesn't talk and also he is a monster. And yeah, I, that part, I don't know.

Kelly (16:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

There's a line, I need to read it to you. It just sums up, this is about him. It's, he's not a human, he's a bear. His love feels like shit.

Nikki (17:12)
Hell no.

Yep.

Kelly (17:24)
Direct quote. Direct quote. Why? And I know this whole bear versus man in the woods thing is like viral right now. I would take a bear 100 % over Kaleb. Are you kidding me? He's not a bear. He's a Kaleb.

Nikki (17:25)
Yep.

Yeah.

There's just, there's like this, all three of the men in this book have this touch her and die complex when it comes to her. And one of them, I think this was a quote from the uncle, if you had been dancing with a man like that in public, I would have taken you over my knee. And I'm pretty sure this is when he spanks her the night of her birthday.

Kelly (17:49)
Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (18:08)
after after maybe no i think i don't know there are so many things in this but i just put grr i'm a man just pee on her already and mark your territory i was just like fucking over it

Kelly (18:09)
Is it her birthday or like right before her birthday? I don't know, but yeah.

Okay, I don't know about you, but I've definitely read books where there's been something kind of like that where there's like a Dom sub relationship and there's a spanking involved or whatever. This wasn't the same because he does spank her later as her uncle, as a parental figure, as a punishment. And it's very bizarre. Like you cannot suddenly be like, I am your parent. I'm your guardian.

Nikki (18:53)
Yeah.

Kelly (18:58)
and start spanking this person. And then later you like rub up on her in the kitchen. Like it's so gross. And she was like upset, but also like, ooh, the vibes, like I'm feeling things. And I'm like, okay, this is weird. Like just not, not the vibe I want. Just, you know.

Nikki (19:06)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

She talks in one scene about how she kind of makes him feel uncomfortable and she goes, I'm not the first to look away this time. And I was like, please just stop calling him your uncle for the love of God. And, have you ever been kissed? I nod, on places other than your mouth, heat pools in my legs, no Uncle Jake, literal vomit in my mouth. I actually think that...

Kelly (19:37)
Honestly...

Nikki (19:53)
some of my dinner came back up. I was like, what the hell?

Kelly (19:57)
I highlighted this part and I put this is fucking crazy because this is like pretty early on in the book. Jake says Jake is talking to Noah because Kaleb doesn't talk. But Jake says she's dealing with the death of her parents. She's an adult. I can't tell her what to do. And then Noah says she's not an adult. Her place is here. It's your say not hers. And I was just yeah. Then he says.

It says, he sits back in his chair, dropping his sandwich to his plate. I know what he's thinking. I sound fucking crazy. Would I really want him to drag her back here kicking and screaming? No, maybe. And I'm just like, okay, it's bad when your child, your son who, he's 20, I think? He's like, no, she is a child. Something like that, yeah.

Nikki (20:45)
Yeah, and then I think Kaleb's like 23. Yeah.

Kelly (20:50)
Like Jake's like, she's an adult. And he's like, no, she's not. She's literally a minor. Like, so it was just icky. It was, it was icky.

Nikki (21:00)
Yeah. Yeah, he says, fuck her father. And I go, yeah, just like you'll fuck her.

Uncle Jake, she moans. Don't stop. Please don't stop. Please stop.

I just can't, I'm looking through these and I just can't.

What?

Kelly (21:26)
when she comes back. So okay, Tiernan leaves to go to her parents funeral, even though she's like, I don't really want to go because I didn't have a relationship with them, but she decides to go and get her closure. And then she comes back without saying anything because it's like that whole stupid dramatic moment that happens in movies all the time, like, I've set her free. I don't know if I'll ever see her again. And then she just shows up without saying anything. But it says here, Tiernan.

swings around the banister dressed in baggy jean shorts, my t -shirt, hair a mess and sunglasses shielding her from the morning light as she hugs herself against the chill in the air. What the fuck? And then I said my thoughts exactly, cause like who just shows up in the house up on a mountain? It's not like, how did she get up there? Cause they made a big point in highlighting how isolated their house is. Like,

Nikki (22:08)
Right?

Well.

Well, they don't do a very good job of security because Jake leaves at one point and this is when the boys decide to take their turns with her for reals and there is butt stuff, which I was like, that's not how that works. But anyway, there's a fire in the barn and they're like, how'd this fire start? And Jake's like, you fucking idiots, somebody started it, obviously. And...

Kelly (22:32)
Yeah.

You

Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (22:51)
I mean, probably what Jake and all of the readers were thinking. And I'm like, so it is pretty easy to get up there if you want to get up there. So.

Kelly (23:00)
Mm -hmm. They sell dirt bikes to all these people who live right below them.

Nikki (23:05)
Right? To go up the dirt path to their home.

Kelly (23:08)
Yeah, so, my god, and the the foreshadowing in this book was so... Okay, I just feel like a lot of things in this book was so bad that it was intentionally that bad because Penelope was just like, we're going for it, we're going all in, we're just gonna make it ridiculous. That's why I felt like it was Pretty Little Liars level because like that show, I watched the shit out of that until the last season.

Nikki (23:34)
Yeah.

Kelly (23:39)
But I think they knew how bad it was. And they're just like, let's just go all in, we'll go all camp, you know? But the part where, this is right after Tiernan comes back from the funeral, and she starts talking about her mother's philosophy on love. Do you remember this part? And so this lady, this girl who doesn't have any relationship with her parents, she's like,

Nikki (23:59)
yeah.

Kelly (24:05)
Besides, I haven't had a single boyfriend when I've had three, then you can't worry about me ending up pregnant and married. wait. I said that totally wrong. I was like, wait. Besides, she adds, I haven't had a single boyfriend when I've had three, then you can worry about me ending up pregnant and married. Three boyfriends, uncle, son, son, and then they go three? And then.

Nikki (24:16)
I don't think that makes sense.

Kelly (24:33)
She's like, my mother said no woman should get married until they've had at least three. So she doesn't have any relationship with her mom, but suddenly she's like, my mom had this really, really great chestnut, you know? And so she's like, lust, learn and love. My mother said the first boy or man is a crush, right? So that's the uncle, I guess. And just like how heavy handed this entire speech was,

The second is to learn about yourself. Your first crush has been crushed. You're sad, but most of all, you're angry. Number two is where you finally learn what you're capable of. You start getting demanding, you grow bold, okay, et cetera. And then the dad was like, what the fuck did she teach you? Which I love. But anyways, I'm skipping over a bunch of things because I don't want to read a whole page out. But the third, the third man is love.

when the lessons of your weakness with number one and your selfishness with number two sink in and you find a middle ground. So, do we think that happened? I don't know.

Nikki (25:44)
Well, she didn't really have any kind of relationship with Noah other than being friends, which I would have been far happier had she ended up with Noah. I -

Kelly (25:55)
my god, I would have been happier even with the uncle and that's disturbing. But like, compared to everyone, she gets with Kaleb. Okay? She gets with Kaleb.

Nikki (25:59)
That's true. That's true.

Also, the fact that everybody knows her as their cousin and everybody knows they're having sex with her and nobody's like, that's a little weird, is super concerning.

Kelly (26:11)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

That's what I was gonna say way at the beginning here. And then I was like, we're getting ahead of ourselves because it's true. This little small town knows who she is. They know she's up there alone in the winter with these men who constantly have women over just to have sex with.

Nikki (26:35)
Do you know what that means though? They're all cousin fuckers.

Why else would they be okay with it? They're all in this rural community. My cousin's next door, my cousin's next door on the other side. It's all cousins up here. I don't know. I'm just, that's the only thing that I can think of that would make people feel like it's okay. Like, it really is just deliverance. I don't know. Like.

Kelly (26:52)
Eww!

Ugh.

I haven't seen Deliverance! All he knows it's the banjo, right?

Nikki (27:12)
Yeah, it's just a lot of inbred people and they torment these men who are going canoeing down the river.

Kelly (27:20)
Ew.

Nikki (27:21)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly (27:26)
Okay.

Nikki (27:26)
EW.

That's right.

Kelly (27:29)
No banjos in this one, if only. I just like, when I read the part where someone finally introduced Tiernan to someone in the community and they said, like, she's our cousin, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. I was waiting for them to be like, that's your cousin. You know what I mean? And there was no like, you know, everyone was just kind of like, she's the new pretty thing in town. And I'm like,

Nikki (27:50)
Yeah.

Kelly (27:58)
Ew, why is everyone here super like, you know, like sex?

Nikki (28:02)
I know.

I don't know, like, cause they only have like four months to do it or something.

Kelly (28:07)
 my God. And that's where the Seven Brides for Seven Brothers thing comes in because of course they go out for her 18th birthday and she's like, I want to have fun. And she like wears her one grownup dress. She gets her hair done, her makeup done, and they go to like the one club in town, which I'm thinking of like where I'm from. It's like this little, it looks like it could have been a Legion. You know what I mean? Like just.

Nikki (28:34)
Yeah, it's like a saloon.

Kelly (28:37)
Yes, go to the saloon, get some beer. She can't even have beer yet because it's the States. You know what I I I mean? Like whatever. So she goes out to have a good time. And then there's like all this sexual tension. And for whatever reason, I forget why, but Kaleb decides to destroy the townies dirt bikes by running them over with his car.

Nikki (28:44)
Yeah.

because they trapped her like in that, like she was over like by the jukebox or whatever. And then Terrence came over and that girl who got pregnant with Terrence's kid, but she wanted them to think that it was Kaleb's kid. And they were all like around her and then they were fighting and then Kaleb gets in the car and then, and then, and then, and then, and then he runs over the dirt bikes, boom. But they can't arrest him until the spring because snow.

Kelly (29:12)
Yes.

 that's where the seven brides for seven brothers comes in. Cause they're like, shit, the blizzard is starting. And they go zoom, zoom, zoom in their truck up the mountain with all these dirt bikes following them. And they're like, like high speed chase. And suddenly there's so much snow that they can't go anywhere. And so.

All the angry villagers had to go back down to the village and they're stuck in their house on their farm isolated for months with their supplies and their woman. It's just like.

Nikki (30:00)
See, the thing is, is if the circumstances of this book weren't the way that they are, I would have really enjoyed a book like this. Like, why choose? That's fun. You're up there, you're isolated. What else is there to do? Like, it's just the familial relations that were really holding me and also the fact that one of them is a fucking psycho, was really holding me back from enjoying this to the full extent.

Kelly (30:07)
Mm -hmm.

Yes!

my God, and the fact that literally the moment she turns 18, they're like, great, we can have sex now. And then she has sex with her uncle in the kitchen. Like, okay. And then she has sex like the next night, I feel like with her two cousins.

Nikki (30:36)
I know.

I don't think so. Correct me if I'm wrong. I feel like this is kind of the correct me if I'm wrong. So she has her birthday and she's like, what do you do up here all winter? And they're like, we masturbate in front of the TV. And so there's that whole thing where then they're just like watching her masturbate and the

Kelly (31:01)
Yes.

Nikki (31:13)
The video was like so corny that they showed her. Anyway, it was like a cop. Yeah. Like cops finding these two people like at like a make out point kind of thing. Anyway, and then the uncle comes down and he's like, what the fuck's going on? And then he spanks her. And I think, I don't know if they, I don't think they have sex that night. I think the first time they have sex is when they go hunting.

Kelly (31:15)
Yeah, they're, yeah, they're watching porn of some kind. Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

Nikki (31:41)
and they have sex at the back of the truck.

Kelly (31:46)
I'm like, let me grab my notes.

Nikki (31:49)
Let me do my research.

Kelly (31:51)
I have no clue. I thought it was she comes back up from her party. Her party from the club, the saloon. And I could have sworn they had sex either that night, her and her uncle, or like the night after. Because I know they like rubbed up on each other, but he was like, I can't, you know, but I think they waited until her birthday.

Nikki (32:15)
Yep.

Kelly (32:20)
to have sex. my god, and when she had to go to the pharmacy to stock up on everything she was gonna need for the winter, like her birth control and shit, I was like...

Nikki (32:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (32:35)
Bitch. I wasn't born yesterday, okay? I mean at least she's being I was gonna say responsible, but.

Nikki (32:37)
Yep.

Kelly (32:45)
But okay!

Nikki (32:48)
in the scene where they have sex in the truck, I rip open her coat, sticking my hand under her sweater and then under her shirt, filling my hand with her plump tit. What? Is this how men think? Ew. Plump.

Kelly (32:52)
Mm -hmm.

Plump? I'm thinking like a little peach or a little pear, not a pear, a little plum. Wow, okay.

Nikki (33:17)
Yep.

Kelly (33:18)
That's so gross.

my God, I just found the part where Noah, Noah starts. I wrote down, what is this, the bachelor? Because you know on the bachelor or the bachelorette, they have like one -on -one time, they're like, yeah, I really like soccer. But also my dad died when I was four.

And I just like never understood how to like talk to people anymore. And they're like, thank you for sharing that with me. And then they get the rose because they like trauma dump on you on the first date. So Noah's like, my mom calls me sometimes. My dad doesn't know. Not sure why I'm telling you. She wants money in her commissary account. And I'm like, you haven't talked about anything besides her body and your conquests with the village women. So you have like,

Nikki (33:55)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah.

Kelly (34:16)
2 minutes alone together and he's like, my mom's in jail. Like, why? What is this? This book is just bonkers. And I ripped right through it. I seriously, because it was like, you couldn't look away.

Nikki (34:22)
Yeah. my god, I know.

I've

The first 15%, I was like, I'm not getting it. And then, or maybe the first 30%, I was kind of like that. And then 30 to 60%, I was like in it to win it. I could not put the thing down. And then the last 40%, I was like, it was getting slow for me to get it. I was like, okay, what? I did really like when she finds Kaleb's notes and in the books.

Kelly (34:57)
Yeah.

Mmm, yeah.

Nikki (35:04)
 like, this is how he's been talking this whole time. He doesn't, he doesn't read the books. He just writes in them. I'm like, he probably reads the books, dude. Anyway. Right? That'd be too obvious. And obviously the other two men he lives with are illiterate and they would never think to go up there and borrow the books.

Kelly (35:11)
Like just get a notebook. You know what I mean?

He's like tortured soul.

my god, well I don't - yeah, I can't picture them as readers. Let me just say.

Nikki (35:27)
That's factual.

Kelly (35:29)
Let me just say they probably have read like 1984 and now they're looking into like Plato's something or other. I work at a bookstore. Okay. I've seen them come in. I've seen them come in. I just, I don't know. I don't know this.

Nikki (35:38)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Kelly (35:51)
And she was in school still. She was being homeschooled by herself. Like she was doing self -teaching or whatever. When was she getting her homework done? Was this before or after the threesome with her two cousins? Like...

Nikki (36:00)
Right?

There was a lot of talk about her like sitting at the table and she'd be like, I'm doing this or I'm doing my college applications or whatever. And I was just like, are you, do they know what college is?

Kelly (36:12)
Yeah.

Why would you even want to go to college girl? Like she's got a huge lump sum of money. Like she's not exactly a social butterfly. It's not like she wants to go out and meet people. She's like, leave me alone, which I get like, Hey, you do you, but maybe don't do your family members. Yeah. And her birthday, she gets a pink camouflage.

Nikki (36:23)
yeah, I wouldn't. I'd be like, okay, let me just chill.

Yeah.

them.

Kelly (36:48)
compound bow. And she's like, I've always wanted this.

Nikki (36:50)
Yes, she does.

I'd be like, okay.

Kelly (36:57)
She's like, I haven't used one in a long time. That's what she says. When would she have used a compound bow? What is a compound bow? Is it just a smaller?

Nikki (37:07)
it's like flat.

Kelly (37:13)
Isn't that a crossbow?

Nikki (37:14)
I think they're like the same kind of thing. Or maybe, maybe, no, that's silly. I was like, maybe you can shoot like three arrows from it at once, like Lord of the Rings.

Kelly (37:25)
Ooh, yeah. It's been so long since I used one. Like, okay.

Nikki (37:31)
Okay, this is a compound bow. It's loading. It looks like that.

Kelly (37:40)
okay.

Nikki (37:41)
just has a lot of gears and stuff I think for like if you're weak and it makes it easier to pull it back because you have to be really strong to use a bow and arrow so

Kelly (37:47)
noted.

Yeah, and she clearly isn't. Yeah.

Nikki (37:56)
strong physically or mentally.

Kelly (37:56)
my god.

So she gets a compound bow from her uncle, I believe, and then she gets a belt that Kaleb makes for her. Like this bougie belt. And I...

Nikki (38:08)
Yes.

Kelly (38:16)
this whole part, okay? It's a belt, dark and tanned with carvings in the leather and an antique -looking silver buckle. I study the etchings. There are trees, a waterfall, the peak, the view from my bedroom window, actually. Something that looks like a braid of hair, a horse, and a dreamcatcher. I swallow. Why would he put a dreamcatcher on there? But it's beautiful. He made this himself? Then I notice something else, and I chuckle. The notches go all the way to the buckle, I point out.

I'm flattered, but my waist isn't that small. Noah leans in whispering, but your wrists are.

Nikki (38:57)
Yep. You know what is something that I thought about quite frequently while finishing this book? The first time that Noah and Kaleb have sex with Tiernan, they have sex with her together. And it's when Jake is gone and he is, I don't even know what he's doing. He's like hunting or he's doing something and he's gone for the night and Noah is laying down.

Kelly (39:06)
Do tell.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Nikki (39:27)
and Tiernan is on him and Kaleb penetrates her in her ass and I'm just like, how weird would it be to be like, I rubbed sacks with my brother while we fucked this girl and I'm like, I mean, I also, like, I don't have siblings, I don't have close family members, so I can't begin to imagine.

Kelly (39:47)
Right?

Nikki (39:57)
how I would feel about that because I don't know what it's like to have a relationship with somebody like that, but I would feel kind of weird about it.

Kelly (40:05)
Yeah! Yeah! Yeah, well, I also -

Nikki (40:06)
I would think. I don't know. But I just, I just thought about that a lot while the book was kind of completing. I was like, mm.

Kelly (40:13)
Well, yeah, because I thought about that with that, but also like the whole they masturbate together watching porn. Like, I don't think that's normal. I think that's that's a bit odd, you know, like I know we shouldn't say normal. Like, what is normal? Well, I don't think it's normal to do that.

Nikki (40:21)
Yeah.

Yep. That's weird.

Yeah.

that.

Kelly (40:42)
I have siblings and I can tell you that's not what happens. We don't do that. That is no, no.

Nikki (40:48)
Good to know.

my gosh. Yeah.

Kelly (40:54)
Yeah, it is disturbing. So, but so then, so then they have this like cozy winter season, if you will, not a lot of sex happens, oddly enough. They like they have sex together, the three of them, like the two sons and her once she has sex with the uncle once and then he's like, this is wrong. We shouldn't do that.

Nikki (41:17)
Mm -hmm.

Kelly (41:23)
And she's like, why? And he's like, because I'm old or whatever. I'm like, that's your problem. Like, okay. And then she has this like weird, not really relationship with the two cousins, but like, they don't really get together until Kaleb and her like on and off getting together or something, right? Like,

Nikki (41:28)
I am old.

Yeah, I know he runs away, not runs away. Yeah, I guess kind of like he goes away for like months and her and Noah in the middle of the night decide they're gonna go and get him. And so they go to the hunting cabin and that's when her and Kaleb finally get together like they are just the two of them. She sees him and she's so emotional and she goes, just so you know, since you left, there hasn't been anybody. I only want you.

Kelly (41:54)
Mm -hmm. Into the woods. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

could there have been? my god.

Nikki (42:22)
I don't know, like, anyway. And so they have sex while Noah's sleeping in the bed beside them. Not in the same bed beside them, but in a bed in the same room. And yeah, yeah, cause it's just like a tiny little cabin with no bathroom. And yeah, but then stuff -

Kelly (42:25)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, like a dorm room. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (42:51)
More stuff goes down, never ending, and she leaves. And she goes back home and then she finds out that Noah has also been in California for the same amount of time that she's been. It's been like six weeks. But the tire swing isn't up anymore. The tire swing is gone. But then the tire swing is back. And who steps out from behind the tree? Crazy Kaleb.

Kelly (43:01)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Nikki (43:18)
and Kaleb with a K too. So...

Kelly (43:21)
Yes, yes, yeah, yes, yes.

Nikki (43:25)
Krazy with a K, Krazy Kaleb. And he  talks to her then?

Kelly (43:32)
Yeah, at the very end. He hasn't spoken since he was four, which this was kind of sad. Like he got left in a car in the heat. Yeah, by his mother who, yeah. Yeah, so that was sad and also kind of like what, you know?

Nikki (43:39)
Yeah. For days.

Yeah, who was a drug addict.

And like also a very intriguing plot point. And I did like that part of the story. There's one part that I highlighted. And I don't mean this to sound like this isn't like a funny thing, but in one of the scenes I highlighted, he grabs me by the jaw and I clench my teeth as he forces my face up.

Kelly (43:59)
Mm -hmm.

Nikki (44:23)
his lips crashing down on mine, his mouth sears in his rage and I steel myself keeping my lips closed as I push him away. And it gave me, have you seen The Miracle Worker?

Kelly (44:38)
Hmm, I'm not sure, maybe a long time ago.

Nikki (44:41)
So it's about Anne Sullivan, who is the lady who helped Helen Keller learn how to do sign language and stuff. And there is a scene, the first breakfast that they have together, and Helen comes in and she's blind and deaf. Almost everybody knows who Helen Keller is. And she's walking around the room and she's feeling and she's just taking food from people's plates. And she's like,

Kelly (44:50)
Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (45:09)
Anne is like, she has to sit down and eat from her own plate. And they're like, well, that's just how she does it. And she goes, well, it's wrong. And she makes everybody leave the room and they have this huge battle, her and Anne, where she's trying to make her hold the fork and like eat like a regular person. And Anne is like throwing stuff and she gets up on the table and stuff. And that's what that made me feel like. He is just so...

Kelly (45:16)
Mmm.

you

Nikki (45:36)
uncontrollable and nobody sat him down to be like, this is not right. And they let him just do this forever and ever. Amen. And I was like, that was the part that made me feel like really bad because it's him, but also it's his dad and his brother not, not sitting him down and like when he was younger and taking the things away from him or letting him be upset and be like, that's wrong.

Kelly (45:41)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Nikki (46:05)
And it's just, it's continued into somebody who is stronger than everybody else, bigger than everybody else, terrorizing people because nobody can overpower him. And I was like, what the fuck?

Kelly (46:11)
Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, because when he keeps trying to like assault Tiernan, they're never like, not to my knowledge anyway, they never really reprimand him. It's more like, like, yeah, they get him off of her, but then they're like, he doesn't talk or like, he doesn't know what he's doing, whatever. I'm like, you know what he's doing. Hello? Like, what the frig? And then she sees him when she's masturbating in that cave.

Nikki (46:37)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Kelly (46:50)
in the water, she sees this like girl from town come out with like a bloody face or something and then he comes out after her and she's like, did he attack her? Like he attacked me, you know? Like my god, which apparently he didn't. I think she like fell or something. Yeah.

Nikki (46:51)
yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, she like hit her nose. But you don't know that until the end of the book, really.

Kelly (47:13)
Yeah.

Yeah, and so this whole time she well before because like they're together and then she finds out that girl's pregnant and she assumes it's Kaleb's because that's what he assumes because of the whole setup or whatever. And then when she finds out that it's not his baby, I feel like that's when he comes back with the tire swing maybe and all that stuff. I don't know.

Nikki (47:45)
I don't know. I honestly like don't remember. I just know like, I'm pretty sure like she enrolled in school and so she left. But so after we see like him talk to her with the tire swing and he's like, I love you. And she's like, I love you too. And then there's an epilogue, of course, five years later and...

Kelly (47:46)
I don't know.

Okay, yeah, I'm trying to find...

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (48:12)
I bet you can guess exactly what happened. They have a baby. Ew.

Kelly (48:17)
Mm -hmm.

Nikki (48:21)
I just, I don't, I mean, that is not uncommon. A lot of the dark romance books I read, the epilogue is always like five years or two years later. And it's from the perspective of the male character. And they're like, we have a baby and that means we're going to be together forever, happily ever after. That's kind of like the gist of it. But what made me really laugh is that the uncle,

Kelly (48:26)
No.

Mm -hmm.

Nikki (48:50)
gets with her assistant because how creepy weird would it be if he didn't end up with anybody and he's just lingering around his son and the girl he used to fuck and their child.

Kelly (49:02)
Yeah, seriously, seriously. And like, and like, okay, here's where my brain goes. My brain goes, when that child grows up, are you gonna tell them that you had sex with their uncle? Because if you don't tell them, they're gonna find out. And like, you know, it's just, can you imagine that conversation? Like, hey,

Nikki (49:05)
So...

That's all I could think about.

It's.

Kelly (49:27)
your father and I, before we were together, I was also with your father's brother at the same time and your grandfather. Yeah. Disgusting.

Nikki (49:32)
and your grandfather.

I imagine it going somewhat like this. You know, son, it's okay to share. Yeah, just like your dad and his family shared me.

Yee -haw!

Kelly (49:54)
This is so gross! I'm trying to find the first thing he says to her. He says, I'm trying to find, maybe I won't find it. Do you remember the first thing he says to her?

Nikki (50:10)
At the tire swing?

Kelly (50:14)
 I found this disgusting line. There were so many gross things in this book, but Tiernan thinks to herself, I'm the only one who hurts me. I believed it was real, whatever was happening between us for however long. And like, I understand the only I can hurt me mentality, but not when we're talking about assault. Like, that's not how it works. That's not how it works. So just want to clarify.

Nikki (50:37)
Yeah.

Kelly (50:44)
Not how that works. No.

Nikki (50:47)
my God. the first thing he says, she goes, I can't believe you're here. I tell him just above a whisper, you actually left Colorado. It was time, he says.

Kelly (51:00)
It was time.

Nikki (51:04)
That reminds me of It Is Time, which is from The Lion King, maybe? No?

Kelly (51:11)
Probably. Not the same vibe, that's for sure. Everything the light touches.

Nikki (51:19)
That's probably how they feel up on that peak.

Kelly (51:21)
Seriously, there was a part I scrolled through and it was like, how many inches are we getting tonight talking about the snow? And they were like,

Nikki (51:28)
Yes.

Kelly (51:32)
Too many inches, one inch too many. I don't even want to know how many inches. I don't want to know. I don't want to know.

Nikki (51:33)
Yeah.

I do. I mean, we read the whole book.

Kelly (51:43)
Maybe if it was a different book.

What did you end up rating it? What are your feelings as a reader? Like, would you ever recommend this book to someone? Okay, do tell. Yes, okay.

Nikki (51:57)
Yes. Like, to torture them.

I don't think I gave this book a rating on Goodreads. I would give it a 1, but a 3 for entertainment value.

Kelly (52:14)
Mmm.

Mm, okay, yeah.

Nikki (52:21)
like a one overall because it was not good and it made me feel icky, but a three for the entertainment value because what about you?

Kelly (52:25)
Yeah.

I would recommend this book to people I knew with the caveat saying like, this is a bonkers read that you will laugh and be like, what is going on? So like for the vibes, if you will, but not the vibes the book intends, more like, yeah, like, yeah, for that.

Nikki (52:38)
Yes.

Yeah.

Do it for the vine, as we millennials would say.

Kelly (52:58)
But I'm looking at my Goodreads. I gave it, I said a two and a half maybe. And my two and a half is because I couldn't put it down because I was so floored with the absurdity and just like...

like the the car accident that this was like it was just it felt like a movie that you and I would watch on your couch you know a wine bottle in being like this is wild this is like the wattpad movie this is the prime original movie with like the young starlets whatever that's what this is like I wouldn't say it's a good book but I think the author

Nikki (53:27)
Yep.

Yep.

Kelly (53:45)
did a good job at knowing her niche and just going balls to the wall and...

Nikki (53:50)
Yep. This has, it has a lot of five star reviews. People went feral for this book. Yep. Just like Kaleb. They went Kaleb for this book.

Kelly (53:55)
It does. It does. Like Kaleb. Yeah. Feral as Kaleb.

people.

So as of this recording, this book has a rating of 3 .69 and there are over 324 ,000 ratings. So this book is a huge seller, you know? And I also think it's interesting that Penelope Douglas, I believe is a pen name, no identity known. And I get it. Yeah, I get it. And I mean, in a joking way, but also in a serious way because,

Nikki (54:21)
Yep.

I can see why.

Kelly (54:38)
everything they write is taboo. So can you imagine writing these things and then being like, you know, picking your kids up from school if you have kids or like going to functions with your partner or like going to the doctor, like all these things and people are like, whoa, she wrote these books. Like some of them are probably her readers, but some of them probably aren't.

Nikki (54:58)
Yeah. Like her, I feel like her kids friends, parents probably wouldn't let their kids go over.

Kelly (55:06)
Yeah, which is like kind of shitty, but I get it. But also I don't get it because it's fiction. You know what I mean? Like so.

Nikki (55:14)
Yeah, I don't know, I would definitely use a pen name, like I wouldn't want my parents knowing I wrote that.

Kelly (55:21)
My mom is super supportive. My dad too, but he wouldn't read a romance book I wrote. You know what I mean? But like my mom would be all over like, Kelly wrote a book. And I'd be like, no, no, I didn't. I don't even know how to read, you know, like don't pick it up. So I don't know. It was, it was a wild ride. I don't know if I would read another book by her.

Nikki (55:38)
Yeah.

Kelly (55:47)
I don't know, because the other two I tried, I couldn't even get past the first chapter. So yeah, just the way it was written, it was like, it was like you... It's like when you read those really quick, bad fanfics almost, like errors everywhere, nonsensical, but we know we want the boy and the girl to have sex. You know what I mean? Like, that was my experience. It was just like, who wrote this?

Nikki (55:52)
really?

No.

Yep.

rate.

Kelly (56:16)
And when did they write it? Like, yeah. So.

Nikki (56:19)
 it definitely made me want to pick up dark romances again, but not, yeah, like an actual dark romance. Like I want to pick up some Rina Kent again. And yeah, but this, it was a ride. I'm glad that I read it because it always feels good to be in on the joke. And it was,

Kelly (56:25)
Mmm. Like real dark romances. Yeah.

Mmm, yeah.

Yes, yes.

Nikki (56:48)
a wild ride. Like, I don't regret it at all, and I think that it's given us a lot to talk about, clearly.

Kelly (56:51)
No.

Yeah, like I would never be able to put a sticker on this book at work being like my pick because they wouldn't understand that I meant it in like a fun way and not like a I love this book way. So I wouldn't do it.

Nikki (57:09)
 bring Post -It notes to chapters and stick it on and just put Nikki's pick and they're gonna be like, who's Nikki? And we're gonna be like, I don't know.

Kelly (57:17)
this propaganda in our store. Take it down.

Nikki (57:19)
like, slip little cards in them?

Kelly (57:23)
Some people do, we gotta take them out. It's like, my God. But I was gonna say, like this book at times when I read it, I legitimately questioned whether it was supposed to be a horror or a romance. Like literally though, because it was so angsty and like, just it didn't feel like a romance. You know what what I mean? Even though there was sex, they ended up together, like all this stuff.

Nikki (57:41)
I love that.

Yeah.

Kelly (57:54)
I legitimately was like, is this an erotic horror? Is this like, and there's nothing wrong with that, but I feel like it would hit different if you knew going in, okay, this is supposed to be scary versus like, this is a romance where she gets with all these people. Like, I didn't feel like it was ever that, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Nikki (57:58)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, that's true. That's very true. Do you have anything else you want to add? I feel like we have stripped this book down.

Kelly (58:26)
All I can say is, I will just reiterate, he's not a human, he's a bear, his love feels like shit.

Nikki (58:37)
that's all we have to say about that. Thank you so much for listening to this episode and sticking around for this crazy ride. If you want to see more from us you can follow us on Instagram at BYO Book Podcast or TikTok at Bring Your Own Book Podcast. Just stay tuned for next time and remember if you're gonna fuck your uncle make sure he's your step uncle. See ya!

Kelly (58:39)
Yes.