Exploring the Maas-Verse

Do you love or hate Sarah J. Maas books? Let us know your fave (or least favorite) of her books by sending us a message!

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In this episode, Nikki and Kelly discuss and explore the works of Sarah J. Maas, focusing on their experiences with her books. They talk about starting with ACOTAR and their initial impressions of the series and the interconnectedness of Maas' books (the Maas-Verse) and the anticipation for how they will converge. The conversation touches on the length of Maas' books, the repetitive use of certain phrases ('she loosed a breath'), and the character development in her stories.

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Chapters

• 0:00 How we started with SJM
• 3:00 She loosed a breath
• 8:59 Female protagonists
• 12:40 Crescent City
• 17:58 Plot- vs. Character-driven stories
• 20:42 Throne of Glass & more ACOTAR
• 28:15 YA or Adult?
• 33:20 SJM, CoHo, and T-Swift
• 41:30 Moral of the story...?
• 45:25 Final thoughts

Transcript

Nikki (00:11)
Hey everybody, welcome to BYOB, the Bring Your Own Book podcast. I'm Nikki.

Kelly (00:16)
And I'm Kelly.

Nikki (00:17)
And today we're going to be talking about all things Sarah J. Maas, the Maas verse, if you will. So I mean, there's a lot that we can go over here. I don't know exactly where we should start, but this lady's just pumping out books.

Kelly (00:34)
well.

is, she isn't, she isn't. Like don't get me wrong, she's got a lot of books, but she's not like Nora Roberts, where it's like four a year, let's go, you know? Because her books are long, which we'll definitely talk about throughout this episode.

Nikki (00:47)
Thank goodness.

and one could argue lately, not super great.

Kelly (01:01)
Yeah, that's fair. I mean, I feel like a good place to start would be at the very beginning, right? Our very beginning. How did you start? Thank you. When you read? You begin with?

Nikki (01:10)
A very good place to start.

ACOTAR

Kelly (01:18)
I was going with Sound of Music, ABC, but yes.

Nikki (01:20)
Yeah, yeah, but I was trying to, you know, spin it back.

Kelly (01:24)
Oh, okay. Yeah. We've got stuff to talk about. Yeah. Did you start with ACOTAR Okay. Same. Yeah.

Nikki (01:27)
But I did start with ACOTAR yeah.

Because, well, I didn't really know about, like, Throne of Glass or anything when I started her stuff, and I didn't think that they would all be connected, so...

Kelly (01:42)
Yeah, I mean, from what I've read so far, of all of the books of her like from the different series, they haven't like converged yet. But I have heard that it's supposed to be all connected somehow. But I'm like, what? How? Why?

Nikki (01:52)
Right.

I think it's because we didn't read the second Crescent City book yet. I think at the end of that book there's something like really big that happens and everybody was like, whoa I don't know. But.

Kelly (02:12)
That's my coworker was like that pretty much exactly like that. Whoa. Yeah.

Nikki (02:17)
 who. But yeah, no, I started with ACOTAR I thought that Throne of Glass was a YA series, and at that time I wasn't really reading any YA books, and I got ACOTAR audiobook for free from the library. So I was like, okay, great. It was weird to listen to. It took me maybe...

Kelly (02:39)
Oh, good for you. That's a steal.

Yeah, I don't like the narrator.

Nikki (02:48)
Yeah, it took me maybe like three quarters of the book to actually like get into it. But I was listening to it at work while I was like stocking and stuff, so it was whatever.

Kelly (02:52)
Hmm.

Stocking OCK.

Nikki (03:03)
Yes, not S-T-A-L-K. But it would really set the mood for that.

Kelly (03:07)
Yes, just to clarify.

Seriously though.

Nikki (03:14)
You're walking down the alley, stalking somebody, and then you just hear in your ear, my bowels turned watery.

Kelly (03:22)
She loosed a breath. I swear to God, so every single book, I think so far by her, breaths loosed everywhere. That's one of my notes I wrote down. I must talk about this. Like, I'm so mad.

Nikki (03:31)
Oh yeah.

 is loosing their breaths.

Kelly (03:40)
everywhere. It's like if you have, what is it, not a loose pelvic floor, but you need to tighten up your pelvic muscles, you have a leaky bladder, whatever, leaky gut, everyone's loose in breaths, their lungs, they need to strengthen.

Nikki (03:51)
Yeah.

You need to do some Kegels on those lungs, folks.

Kelly (04:02)
up your VO2 max, because I'm an expert. I'm not.

Nikki (04:06)
Oh man, yeah, I just... it's turning into the... she let go of a breath she didn't know she was holding. That's what she's doing with this.

Kelly (04:18)
 it's every book though, Nikki, like every single book, the entire ACOTAR series, I'm now halfway through Throne of Glass. Every book, someone is loosing a breath or a sigh or something with oxygen. Every book, at least once, more than once, usually. But I'm like, why? Did we not learn from our previous mistakes over the years? Like...

Nikki (04:23)
Yeah.

also has an editor not told her don't fucking do that.

Kelly (04:49)
I guess not, maybe she thinks it's cute. It's like my calling card, like it's not cute.

Nikki (04:54)
My calling card. It's like you say it in the mirror three times and Sarah J. Maas appears. Or you have to physically do it. You have to go like.

Kelly (04:55)
I don't think it is, right? I loose breaths everywhere.

But...

Nikki (05:08)
into the mirror and then she shows up. You have to physically loose the breath yourself.

Kelly (05:14)
But how does one loose a breath? You know, is it like, you have to like, hold it in, hold it in, hold it in. Like, I don't know.

Nikki (05:23)
has to be quivery when it comes out.

Kelly (05:27)
to loose it or is it like a balloon where it's like, just like constant stream? I don't know.

Nikki (05:34)
I was thinking of like when it whistles, when you like pull the ends where it's like

Kelly (05:42)
and it's like, at the end.

Nikki (05:47)
That's the watery bowels coming in. We're, we're getting ahead of ourselves.

Kelly (05:47)
Anyways.

So, I also started with ACOTAR, I will say, but I started with the first two books and then I was like, I'm not going to read this anymore. I'm going to take a break. And then my friend at the time, she gifted me a copy of Throne of Glass and she was like, if you love ACOTAR, you'll love this. It's her first book ever. She wrote it when she was 16 and I was like, okay. And then I read it and I was like, yeah, like I could tell that she was 16 and don't get me wrong

I've read a lot of really bad books by not 16 year olds and even one yesterday that I DNF'd. So by like a 50 year old, I want to say. But anyways, it wasn't like the worst thing I've ever read, but there was just like so many things going on that I don't think she was like just strong enough of a writer yet at that point to make interesting. So it was like fine.

But then I just didn't read anything by her for a while because I was like, yeah, not really my thing. And I called it throne of ass, which I still do to this day. But I am liking the series though, now that I've started it again. I am book.

Nikki (07:08)
and surpassed the first three books.

Kelly (07:12)
I think people are crazy and that the second book is actually a lot of fun. Like, I didn't have to wait four books to like it. If I had to wait four books, I wouldn't be reading it. Like, no way. No way, Jose.

Nikki (07:21)
Right.

I own the first.

Three books, I guess. Haven't started them yet.

Kelly (07:33)
Okay. I think you'll like it, actually. I'm surprised by... yeah.

Nikki (07:37)
Yeah, I'm mentally prepared enough to power through the parts that I'm not loving so much to get to the greater good of the reading experience, if you will. But yeah, I just, I read Crescent City in December, I believe it was, and oh boy, did I just feel like I needed a huge break.

Kelly (07:52)
Yeah.

Nikki (08:06)
Sarah J. Maas after that because I was, I felt personally victimized by that book. I feel like she wrote that to smite me.

Kelly (08:08)
Yeah.

Well...

Sorry, we should clarify it because I do this all the time too. We're talking about House of Earth and Blood, I guess? Like the first Crescent City?

Nikki (08:26)
Yeah, the red one. Not the blue one. Or the gold one, I don't know what the third one is.

Kelly (08:28)
Yes, yeah, I always want to call it Crescent City. Oh, I have no clue. Yeah, no clue. But like Crescent City is so big on the cover and then in little letters, it's like, you know, so yeah, just so people know we're talking about. Yeah. Yes.

Nikki (08:38)
Yeah. Anyway, Crescent City Book One was about 500 pages too long, and the only good stuff happened at like 85%.

Kelly (08:50)
Yeah, I agree.

Mm.

Nikki (08:59)
the main girl. Like, why can't a girl want to, like, weld or something? Why do they all have to be like, I'm a dancer, I love to draw, I can read, or in Feyre's case, I can't. So that's why she paints instead. But yeah.

Kelly (09:12)
I'm a dancer. Can you? Yeah.

Nikki (09:23)
I just think that the book was not good. My favorite part was the little fire spirit.

Kelly (09:29)
I...

I did like her, them, I don't know, the fire. I did like that character, yes.

Nikki (09:37)
I think it's a her. Lubaba? Is that what her name was?

Kelly (09:44)
I don't know. I read this not too long ago.

But k, the biggest thing, so yeah, I also wrote down that I hate that all of her heroines are like, I have this artistic hobby that I'm obsessed with. And like, not to say that you can't have an artistic hobby, but you have three main girl characters. One likes to dance, one likes to paint, one likes music. Cause in Throne of Glass, she likes music and plays the piano forte. Not the piano, the piano forte, okay?

Nikki (10:04)
Yeah.

Okay.

Kelly (10:18)
So I'm picturing like little Mozart in like Amadeus, but like Sarah J Maas version. But anyways, so that's annoying. But like until the last ACOTAR book, I feel like most of the female characters who are like the main characters, they don't have enough like negatives, I guess. Like they're just too like, they're kind of like the Mary Sues, but with.

Nikki (10:24)
That's funny.

Kelly (10:48)
an artistic hobby or whatever. It's like, I'm so special and they're OP, they're overpowered, but they're super special and they're so beautiful and everybody wants to be with them and I can also paint, but I can't read, you know? Like it just, I don't know, it bugs me. I will say Throne of Glass is like a little better, but it's still like, yeah, she loves the piano forte and everyone loves her and wants to be with her and blah, blah blah. It's like...

Nikki (10:50)
Right

Yeah.

Kelly (11:17)
Oh my god, you know, like, could we just have a real quote unquote person in this Fae book? Like, I don't know, Nesta is close for me, but still there's like this weird like Disney kind of feel to her books where everything is like squeaky clean, even when it isn't, you know?

Nikki (11:24)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I think Nesta went too far in the other direction. Like, maybe Sarah was writing these books and thinking, maybe I do make them too perfect. I'm gonna make her horrible. And then it was like, okay, girl, like, you need to chill. Even Nesta needs to, like, take a break from scowling, like, once a day.

Kelly (11:44)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Nikki (12:04)
I mean, that's why she reads the romance books, I guess. I don't know. But yeah, there was... It was nice, though, to see her make Nesta the main character just for the fact that everybody shit on her completely through the whole first part of the series. They were like, she's just a miserable human. And now she's a miserable fairy. And I was like, OK, cool. Make me like her.

Kelly (12:08)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

I mean, yeah, at least she had some kind of like training montage that we don't get with Feyre. We don't get it with Bryce. Like I don't even know. Like, okay, going back to Crescent City, something else that kind of bothered me about reading that book was she took all this time to create this world. And I was like, okay, cool. But like, I didn't understand what this world was at the end of it. Because like

Nikki (12:37)
Right.

Kelly (12:58)
It was like fantastical. They had all these fae creatures, fairy creatures, I guess, cause it wasn't just fae, it was like goblins and spirits and all this stuff. But then they had like audio mail and like technology that seemed like our kind of stuff. And so I was like, is this an urban fantasy? Is this a sci-fi? What is this? Like I'm fine either way, but can you just tell me? Because I don't know. Like, I don't know.

Nikki (13:25)
Great.

Kelly (13:28)
It bugged me.

Nikki (13:29)
Yeah, I think the main reason it bothered me is what you just said, audio mail. We have that in real life. It's called voicemail and just call it that. Oh my sweet baby Jesus. Because that to me, I don't know, it gives me the ick. I read it and I'm like, ugh, that's like such a cop out thing to do. Just, just call it what it is. Or just...

Kelly (13:43)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (13:59)
make it something totally different.

Kelly (14:02)
Yeah, like make them...

Nikki (14:03)
Like maybe it's like a hologram that comes out and then you can just name it something completely different and it doesn't have to be her cell phone that has a voicemail on it. Yeah.

Kelly (14:12)
 all this crap or like have them send crows or something, you know, or have them send a, I don't know, a sprite or something. I don't know. But like, yeah, I just didn't know what I was, where I was.

Nikki (14:18)
Yeah.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I feel like there is a lot of fantasy that's kind of like this. I don't understand why some of these authors don't read some sci-fi books. Sci-fi authors have been translating our kind of technology into new or similar kinds of technology for space for decades and decades, and they make it, like, they can do it very in very interesting ways.

Kelly (14:51)
Mm-hmm.

Nikki (14:58)
So why are you calling this audio mail when some fucking old white guy made like 20 different names for it that are way cooler? What just put in the work?

Kelly (15:07)
Yeah, or just like, seriously, or on the flip side, she could have done it kind of like Holly Black where it's like, we are in Fae or we're in the real world and there's like a way to get to Fae or Fairy, sorry. It's like, I keep mixing the two up, but whatever. You know what I mean? Like, so Crescent City, wherever that place is, I forget the name of it. Crescent City. I guess, maybe.

Nikki (15:23)
Right.

Yeah.

I don't know, man.

Kelly (15:37)
I don't know! But like, wherever they are, maybe it could have been in like a sort of Earth place or like a different type of Earth where all these creatures live. And yeah. So then you can still have your email or your voicemail or whatever and not have to like try to think of a creative way to make it fit into your like ACOTAR world but not. Because that's like, just make it urban fantasy or don't.

Nikki (16:05)
Yeah, I agree. I agree. I, uh, I don't know. That book was just so long.

Kelly (16:06)
That's all.

I liked, yeah, it was way too long, which I think is, it's not just Sarah J. Maas's problem. There's a lot of authors that I'm like, okay, you could have shaved like hundreds of pages off of this and it still would have been great. But like, there were some parts I liked. I liked Hunt for the most part, but unlike you, I did not like the ending bit with all the fighting. I just, I wish it had happened.

Nikki (16:39)
Oh yeah.

Kelly (16:43)
with them all there versus like, most of the people are watching it essentially through a live stream. And they're all like, go Bryce, go, you got this. I'm like, A, she can't hear you, idiot. B, why don't you go and help?

Nikki (16:57)
Yeah.

And also to clarify, just because I liked it the best doesn't mean I really, really liked it. Because I didn't. But it was the most interesting part of the book for me, by far. I just felt like I'm reading and I'm like, what is even happening? Nothing is happening. He, I don't know what it is. I cannot pinpoint.

Kelly (17:05)
Mm.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (17:29)
the Je ne sais quoi or whatever that some authors have to write a very long book that has nothing going on or whatever that I love and I will read it so fast. That book did not have it for me. So I don't know what it is that I look for personally in a book like that, but whatever it was was not sprinkled on this book.

Kelly (17:37)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

you know, I was thinking of this the other day, I was talking to Scott about romance and like, how sometimes I love short plot driven, whatever. And other times I like the Emily Henry type of books where it's more like character driven. It's a little long, not longer, but like, you know, it's more of a slow burn, but other things are going on without a lot of plot happening necessarily. I feel like Sarah J. Maas is a plot driven writer who is trying to do character driven stuff.

Nikki (18:12)
Right.

Right.

Kelly (18:27)
and it's just not translating. So then it's like, she's dragging this out and we're like, we don't care. Or at least you and I are like, we don't really care because it's not what she does really or what she does well, I guess. That's my theory.

Nikki (18:29)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, ACOTAR, I feel like was very plot driven. There was always something happening and they were always moving on to a new place or a new problem. I loved that. I think that might be why, even though I did enjoy A Court of Silver Flames for the romance aspect, the book did fall short for me in a lot of ways. With it didn't have the same feeling as the rest of the series, excluding that fourth book that shouldn't exist.

Kelly (18:49)
Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Oh my god, the Christmas special, the winter solstice special. Yeah.

Nikki (19:15)
Yeah. So, but because Nesta and Cassian were just in one place the whole time, and there wasn't really like a huge plot line other than you're being punished because you're grouchy.

Kelly (19:29)
 And there's a monster in the basement of the library? Question mark?

Nikki (19:35)
that she becomes friends with. Anti-climactic.

Kelly (19:37)
Yeah, also question mark. I've struggled my own demons and I can befriend this one, like shut up, you know? We get it. You're so perfect. Tortured poet department.

Nikki (19:45)
Yeah.

Yeah, you're tortured.

Kelly (19:56)
Any new listeners? We're both not Swifties. Sorry, not sorry, but her album just came out, so I thought I would just call out.

Nikki (20:05)
Just so you can let everyone know.

Kelly (20:08)
Nesta is the tortured poet. She's the OG tortured lady poet. She's not, I just want to say.

Nikki (20:16)
I don't even know enough about Taylor Swift's new album to get the reference that you're making. I don't know what it's called. Oh.

Kelly (20:21)
That's the name of it, I think. The Tortured Poets Department or something, or society. I don't know. It's, all I know is that it's over two hours long. Why? Is this a Sarah J. Maas book? Ha!

and scene. No.

But okay, I will say, Throne of Glass, okay, I'm surprised that I'm liking it. And that's why I feel like you might like it. Cause I feel like for the most part, it's blending the plot stuff that she's good at with a little bit of character driven stuff. So, I don't know, I feel like, cause it was her first series, I'm pretty sure, like completed series, this is where she starts to try to...

Nikki (20:43)
oof oh man

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Kelly (21:12)
do some like epic fantasy kind of stuff. And for the most part, I think it's doing pretty well. But book three, Heir of Fire was way too long and slow. And the last book, which I haven't read yet, Kingdom of Ash, I think, it's like 900 pages. Why?

Nikki (21:31)
Yeah.

Kelly (21:33)
So I feel like I might be in the sweet spot right now, right in the middle of the series, where like, it's still not crazy long. And there's more plot than like meandering through until we finally get to like the last 50 pages where it's like boom, boom, boom, action, action. So, I don't know. But so far, a lot of people have told me that that's their favorite series. And I was kind of like, ew, what? When they told me. But now I'm like, I might get it. Because it's kind of like...

Nikki (21:36)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Kelly (22:03)
the best of both worlds right now, but I could be wrong. I'm not done yet.

Nikki (22:05)
Right.

I definitely think I'm going to pick up the series sooner than later this year, but I've been trying so hard to not read series and not start series because, you know, you start a book or you read a book and then at the end of the year you look and you've started like 20 new series and you're like, what the fuck? I'm never going to read all of these.

Kelly (22:32)
Yeah.

Nikki (22:34)
But at least this one's done, right? Throne of Glass is done. Well, thank heavens for that. So at least I know when the end is.

Kelly (22:39)
Yes.

Hmm.

It is eight books or like seven if you don't read the novella thing, but like unlike the ACOTAR novella, this one was actually fun. So, but I will say you don't have to read it. You don't have to. I enjoyed it, but you could skip it if you wanted to and you'd be fine. So.

Nikki (22:50)
Right.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

 found with the ACOTAR novella, what is it? Kingdom of, or Court of Frost and Starlight or something, they didn't feel like the same characters. They're all so happy and they're like, it's Christmas and Christmas tree and Belle's enchanted Christmas up in here basically. And I was like, this is not the ACOTAR vibe. Can we have

Kelly (23:13)
Yeah.

No.

Ugh. I know! If only! God.

No.

Nikki (23:33)
some conflict. It doesn't have to be conflict that you need to recap in other books, but just something real going on.

Kelly (23:40)
No.

Oh my god, I don't know what to get him for winter solstice like

Nikki (23:47)
Nesta's a drunk on top of the bar and she won't come to visit any of us.

Kelly (23:52)
Everyone's a drunk at Christmas, okay?

Nikki (23:56)
Who's happy at Christmas? No one.

Kelly (24:00)
BAH HUMBUG!

Nikki (24:02)
I don't know, I just, I felt like they weren't real, they weren't true to the characters that we had learned about in the three books previously. And so that's mainly why I wasn't interested in that.

Kelly (24:11)
Yeah.

by that book and I mean, you warned me, you were like, it's crap, it's fluff and I was like, oh God. So I just got the audio book from the library and I zipped through it in like an hour and a half. Because I was like, I hate this. Yeah, and I felt the same way. I was like, this is crap. There's nothing happening. And one of my complaints of the third book and the second book honestly, was that we don't really see Feyre or Rhys talk to other people.

Nikki (24:27)
Yeah, that's what I did.

Kelly (24:43)
throughout the books, it's like this like core group of people that they talk to. And so in this little novella, she's like, oh yes, my favorite shopkeeper. I'm like, who? We've never met her. Why do you suddenly know everyone in this town? And you're like, oh, I love these people. They're my people. I need to protect them. Like, bitch, what? Oh God. Also by the end of the third book, before the end of the third book, I was so over Feyre and Rhys.

Nikki (24:48)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

I teach art classes or whatever.

Kelly (25:13)
together or separate. I was like, I'm done. I loved Rhys in the first, second book, third book. I was like, you're boring, barf, moving on. So when we got to book five or four, I guess, with Nesta and Cassian, I was like, thank God, let's go.

Nikki (25:15)
I know.

Right.

I didn't find Rhys boring in the third book. I mean, in all honesty, I really can't remember what happens in the third book. But I was really happy to get Cassian and just have some like fresh perspective happening. I really...

Kelly (25:36)
Yeah.

Well, nobody dies, I'll tell you that. God.

Yes.

Nikki (25:53)
There are still so many characters in this book that I love and the series that I love and that I want to hear from. I want Azriel. I am dying for fucking Lucien and Elain's book. And people keep speculating online and being like, she's actually probably going to be mates with Tamlin or she's going to be mates with Azriel. And I'm like, don't break Lucien's heart. I love him.

Kelly (26:01)
Mm-hmm.

Oh my god.

 yes, but also she hinted at like Cassian and Azriel. They like used to like do menages and like group things and all this stuff. So I'm like Elain, the buttoned up pretty perfect one, you know, whatever. She probably paints too. Okay, she probably like decoupages or scrapbooks. Oh my God. Oh, I didn't. Oh, see, she's the nurturer. She's like...

Nikki (26:30)
Yeah.

No, she gardens, remember? She's a gardener.

Kelly (26:48)
I can't get anything but my hands dirty. And then maybe it'll be a menage book. Maybe it'll be a Why Choose? Lucien and Azriel and Elain.

Nikki (26:59)
I would love that. I just don't want Lucien's heart to get broken. He loves Elain and so Elain must love him back. I don't care if it's with other people, I'm just not accepting her not loving him. That's just how it is.

Kelly (27:03)
No.

Yes.

Yeah, agreed, agreed. I would love that book. Do I think Sarah will write it? Probably not, probably not.

Nikki (27:17)
 supposed to be writing another ACOTAR book. Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. I thought you meant like another book period and I was like, I heard!

Kelly (27:21)
Oh, I meant the three of them together. Cause like she's too. No, no, I just feel like so. Okay. I kept saying to you and to my coworkers, like, why is ACOTAR being moved to the adult section? Cause like, it's not that steamy. The last book is steamy. That was like her most adult book, I would say. And, but even still, it was pretty tame in terms of like.

Nikki (27:40)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kelly (27:50)
adult romance books, you know? So I don't know if it's in Sarah's heart to give us a Why Choose or a Polyamorous book. Like, I really don't know. And that's okay. Like, you don't have to write all those things. That's fine. But I'm like, don't tease that. And then be like, haha, just kidding. Of course not. Like, what? Then don't even bring it up. What the heck? I do wonder. I don't remember if I

Nikki (27:53)
Great.

Yeah.

Right.

Right.

Kelly (28:17)
learned why Throne of Glass was moved to the adult section, I feel like it's just they wanted to rebrand because ACOTAR had moved. I don't think it's anything to do with the content. So yeah, it was only until the last book came out with Nesta and Cassian that they moved it to adult, and because it was just that one book there, they're like, well, we got to move the whole series, and then they did the new covers and yeah.

Nikki (28:25)
Right.

Was ACOTAR in the YA section at one point? Oh.

Right.

I definitely, like, I understand from, like, the sexual aspect, I guess, like, maybe they're not, like, that steamy, but reading them, I was like, I wasn't getting YA. I was like, this makes total sense why this is in, yeah, why this is in the adult section. Like, it's like a fucking 300-year-old man preying on a 20-year-old or whatever. That's fucking disgusting.

Kelly (28:59)
ACOTAR? Oh.

Twilight.

Nikki (29:12)
I know, but also Stephanie Meyer made Bella wear a khaki skirt and a button down into the meadow and that screams YA. Like that screams virgin.

Kelly (29:25)
Oh yeah, the outfit! Yes, that's true actually, because the outfit that Rhys makes her wear to the party or whatever, that is definitely not YA. That's true.

Nikki (29:35)
Yeah, like just like things like that where I was like that, it doesn't really fit with the demographic of what people would be like, this is definitely for teenagers. So I wasn't surprised that it was in the adult section and I thought it was more like new adult, but they don't have a new adult section. So, you know.

Kelly (29:47)
Hmm, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, which I get, but that would be helpful. Just like for people trying to buy books, you know, of like, what is this? So you don't pick up an adult book and be like, why is everyone so mature? Or the other way around, why are these people so mature? I don't know.

Nikki (30:11)
Right.

I guess that's why you just have to go on Goodreads. And look, it usually says like, young woman, or just turned 20, blah blah blah, goes to blah blah blah to prove herself, and then you know it's new adult.

Kelly (30:22)
Yeah.

Yeah. You know what? I'm kind of curious. I just thought of this. I don't know why. I wonder if Sarah J. Maas would ever write under a pen name and like try to write something either younger or like older. Like, I don't know. Like the stuff is adult, but I just feel like more mature, you know? Because it is kind of like on the line of new adult adult. I don't know. I wonder if

Nikki (31:00)
Right?

She's in... This is mean. Not mean, but...

Kelly (31:11)
Please do tell.

Nikki (31:14)
Her and JLA and Rebecca Yaros are in this category I like to call fun fantasy, where you don't have to have big words or really deep thoughts, you just have to have some magical elements and then fantastical. They are not hitting it hard like Robert Jordan and what you think of when you think of traditional fantasy books.

Kelly (31:24)
Mm.

Nikki (31:43)
They're just like, we're just here to have a good time, which is great. I'm also here to have a good time, but it's different. And.

Kelly (31:44)
Mm.

Yeah. And I wonder if that's plot driven versus character driven, maybe, you know?

Nikki (31:55)
I don't know, I think a lot of it has to do with like, how, I mean, if anyone's ever read a Robert Jordan book, there's a lot of description. It's very dense. It is all world building. You are thrown in there and you just figure it out. And it's all about like the terrain and the journey. And that's not really what these books are about. They're very plot driven in terms of like these things are happening.

Kelly (32:05)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (32:24)
But they could be happening almost anywhere. You're not getting, it's not as meaty as these other fantasy books. Yeah, which is fine, but it would be interesting to see her try to, even if it is still fantasy, do more of like a serious fantasy, or like just not romance fantasy.

Kelly (32:27)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's like more commercial instead of literary. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah, because I feel like Crescent City is her maybe trying to do that under her own name still, but there is still the romance in there. And I'm sorry, but it's too long. I shouldn't feel like why is this too long? Even if it's a long book, I should be enjoying it, you know? Like The Poppy War, Babel. I didn't feel like this is way too long. Of course it's a long book, but I didn't feel like oh god, why? Why?

Nikki (33:16)
I know. Yeah.

Kelly (33:21)
I don't know. But she's pretty accessible. So I guess that's why one of the reasons why she's so popular. But I had a note here about, so I wrote down like all of my thoughts on all of her books that I've read, but then also just like general thoughts. Because I was like, I need to be prepared for this. There's so much to talk about. But here's I don't know if it's a question or a thought, whatever. But like Sarah J. Maas.

Taylor Swift, again, I'll bring her up. Colleen Hoover. What do they all have in common? Okay, they all have crazy fan bases, like crazy, where not everyone who likes them is gonna be like, don't you dare say a negative thing about her. But there's a lot of people who are like, you know, we're gonna cancel you, we're gonna come after you, we're gonna, like, why? Could we relax? Like...

Why do you think that is? Like, I don't know.

Nikki (34:20)
I think maybe, I don't know so much about Colleen Hoover, because I don't really feel like her main fan base is our demographic. I feel like it's a lot of older women, like 35 plus. I could be wrong. Like a lot of people our age still read her or younger, like early 20s.

Kelly (34:37)
Hmm.

Yes. Yep.

Nikki (34:50)
But I think with Taylor Swift, Sarah J. Maas, they were getting big and doing their thing when people who are our age were like 14, 15, Taylor Swift even younger, I remember when Teardrops on my guitar came out. And when you have something that you love so much at that age and it's something that has gotten you through a lot of hard times or...

Kelly (35:06)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Nikki (35:17)
is just something that you feel was really formative in growing up. It is probably really hard to hear somebody critique that if you're not somebody who's used to hearing people critique things that you like. I don't know. But that's the only thing I can think of is just that when these people became popular, their main fan base was at an age where

Kelly (35:34)
Hmm.

Nikki (35:45)
they just really held everything very close. And now they can't really separate that. Like, I held Twilight very close to me, and I still do when I think about reading it at that age, but also I can acknowledge, like, that I'm an adult now, and some of those things maybe weren't A-okay, or like, good reading. But that doesn't change my feelings about how I felt about them then.

Kelly (35:49)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (36:15)
But I think a lot of people just don't have that separation.

Kelly (36:19)
Yeah, you're probably right. Like, I don't know what it is, because it's again, these are not the only fandoms that have like, obsessive extremist fans, but they definitely do. And it is a little odd. Like, I don't feel that way with like, Jennifer L. Armentrout stuff. But like, even the stuff that I'm diehard about, I'm not that person, because I'm just used to people making fun of me anyway. Or like what I like, it's like, whatever, you do you.

Nikki (36:39)
Right.

Kelly (36:49)
But like, I don't know. But I also think it's interesting working at a bookstore, seeing who buys the books or whatever. Like they're, Sarah J. Maas and Colleen Hoover or Colleen Hoover, I always forget that. But the two authors, they have very similar demographics and they get a lot of readers across the board, mainly women, but like there is a difference I find between like,

Don't you, I think you know this too in your heart. Like people are way quicker to put down Colleen Hoover than Sarah J. Maas, even though they both have, yes, they both have like positives and negatives, maybe more than, you know, depending on who you're talking to, maybe they'll like one more than the other, whatever. But like, I think they're both kind of on a similar level in their genres. And maybe that's wild for me to say, but like.

Nikki (37:27)
Oh yeah.

Kelly (37:47)
I think they're accessible. That's why they're popular. I don't think either of them is like the best of the best or the worst of the worst because yeah, I don't know.

Nikki (37:55)
No.

I mean, say what you want about Colleen Hoover, but the lady sold more books than Jesus. Like, sold more copies of her books than the actual Catholic Christian Bible. So, clearly people like her. We read a couple of her books.

Kelly (38:03)
Oh my god!

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (38:26)
We read two of her probably most popular books, one of them in a genre she doesn't usually write in, Verity, and then one of them in the genre or like, I wouldn't say the genre she's best known for because it's not a romance book, but it is kind of in that vein. And I don't think it's her fault that people who are reading it aren't interpreting it the right way.

Kelly (38:30)
Yeah.

No. Yeah.

It's honestly, a lot of it, I think is the publisher's fault because they're the ones who are like putting money into putting this on a romance list or putting it here, getting this signage, like all this crap because I have to deal with it at work too. And people are constantly coming up to me being like, where are her books? I checked in the romance section and I'm like, okay, yeah, a lot of her books are there. But the one you're looking for, It Ends With Us or It Starts With Us is not in romance because it's not a romance. Yes.

Nikki (38:55)
agreed.

It's in fiction. Yeah.

Kelly (39:19)
Oh my god. So and like if you've read the book people you'll know it's not a romance like it is about abuse it is a it's literary fiction if you will contemporary fiction you know so yeah.

Nikki (39:21)
Yeah.

Yeah. So like, I don't know. She's doing better than I'm ever going to do. So who am I to judge? Well, I don't think I'm going to be pumping out that many books or like, or even any books, but like, she has her stuff nailed down into what she's good at and what people want from her. Can't blame a girl.

Kelly (39:41)
You never know, Nikki! Well, that's the thing.

Okay.

Yeah.

Nikki (40:01)
for... hustling

Kelly (40:03)
Not. Yeah, I was gonna say not trying. She's doing it. Yeah. Like, I mean, that's the thing. Like.

Nikki (40:06)
Yeah.

Kelly (40:10)
It doesn't like, okay, what I'm trying to say is you don't have to be the best in the world to do something, right? Like she has a niche, Sarah J. Maas has a niche, they're good enough at it. They have a reader base. They're successful. They're making money. They're laughing all the way to the bank. So at the end of the day, it doesn't even really matter if we're like, yeah, she's kind of mediocre, mediocre because like we bought the books, we read the books.

Nikki (40:37)
No.

Kelly (40:38)
we're all talking about the books. So, you know, yeah.

Nikki (40:42)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And like Sarah J. Maas, you just, she's just gonna keep doing what she wants to do. People are gonna keep buying them. I personally am not going to purchase any more books in the Crescent City series because I just, I can't get on board with that unless I read the second book and it really just turns it around for me. And I'm like, oh my God.

Kelly (40:48)
I'm sorry.

Nikki (41:12)
This is actually amazing. I'll just read them on like through Libby or something, which is fine. I still want to read them. I still want to support her in some way, but I have supported her by buying a lot of her other books. She's fine.

Kelly (41:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, she's not gonna like, you know, lose her home over us not buying a book. Like she's fine. I will say, I have to say on a serious note, because she has also been in the news for like political reasons, right? I do think it is very interesting. I said in some of my reviews on Goodreads, like throughout the Throne of Glass series, she talks a lot about

Nikki (41:29)
Rape.

Mm-hmm.

Kelly (41:48)
prison camps and people being enslaved and all these things that are very reminiscent of what happened to Jewish people in the Holocaust. And I don't remember what year these books were written in, but like it's older. But now with what's happening in the world with like Zionism, antisemitism, Middle East stuff, I'm just like, this is very interesting to be reading because she, you know, she's writing all these things about like...

Nikki (41:57)
Okay.

Right.

Kelly (42:18)
this isn't okay, it doesn't matter who you are, blah blah blah, all this stuff, but then she's walking a different walk in real life. So I'm like, this is a little weird. Like it always makes me uncomfortable when the author in real life is so different than like the values they're trying to promote in their books. And they're like, you know, like, I don't know. It's like, it's just weird to me.

Nikki (42:39)
Oh, interesting.

I mean, I understand the idea of obviously being uncomfortable with what she is preaching in real life and what she's showing people because I mean, I don't know enough about world issues to speak on like what's going on, but that is concerning. But on the flip side of that, I don't

Kelly (42:52)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (43:10)
like that's like a general rule at least for me. I don't read books to hear about what the author thinks about things in life. I don't give a shit. I mean Stephen King writes horrible characters, horrible racist murdering like malicious people and I don't ever think I wonder if he thinks those things too. So I don't know like I don't think that's like

Kelly (43:14)
Mm-hmm.

Oh, yeah, no, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Nikki (43:39)
something I think of across the board. I just think, I mean her, JK Rowling, when like JK Rowling obviously like very blatant about trans rights and what she feels is appropriate for people to do with their bodies and like I don't agree with that and I don't want to support her.

Kelly (43:46)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Nikki (44:07)
books, no matter what her books are saying, like I don't want to give her money just because of that. But I don't ever think like when I'm reading a book, is this what the author actually thinks?

Kelly (44:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Oh yeah, that's like, I guess it only came to me reading this book because I had seen things online like recently about her saying things or not saying things or something. Because yeah, I agree. I'm not usually like, these terrible things are happening. I wonder if they also think like that in the real world. This was like the opposite. She was like, everything in the book is like the complete opposite of how she's living her life. And you would think that she would want to be.

Nikki (44:29)
Right.

Okay.

Right.

Right.

Kelly (44:50)
like the character she's writing because it's like the good thing to do. You know what I mean? Like like she's trying to teach these things through the book and I'm like okay like that's weird. Sometimes I just want to be like have you read your own book? You know like to some people.

Nikki (44:55)
Great.

Right.

She'd probably just be like, I was 16 when I wrote that. What did I know? I don't know. Like, she probably doesn't even remember what she wrote. Like, so long ago.

Kelly (45:11)
Yeah.

We don't remember what we read.

Relatable. I can't remember what I read like two weeks ago.

Nikki (45:19)
Oh man.

Yep, I'm with you.

Kelly (45:26)
I think I do have a question kind of like to wrap things up unless you had more you wanted to talk about. No? Okay, I have like kind of a wrap up question. Yeah. Overall, out of all the books we've read by her, I have the numbers in front of me for me, but like, do you know kind of in your head what you would give her books as like an average rating as an author?

Nikki (45:33)
No. Hit me with it.

I think I would probably give her like a 3.5. Like you're gonna have a good time, not all of them are gonna be really great, you'll have a couple five stars in there, but they'll mostly go by pretty quickly for you. That's how I would describe her work as a whole of what I've read.

Kelly (45:59)
Go.

Yeah, I think I agree. I think I actually have like the same if I look at the numbers. Yeah, because yeah, it's like, for better or worse, you know what you're signing up for, which can be great because at least you know what to expect. But you are going to have the occasional winter solstice special. Unfortunately, Lucky you! To anyone who said you have to read that book, they're lying. I'm just gonna tell you. No.

Nikki (46:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yay.

Yeah, you don't have to. Please, I implore you not to even, because it was a waste of time.

Kelly (46:45)
no. It was.

Nikki (46:49)
On that note, we're going to wrap it up. Thank you so much for watching and listening today. If you want to hear more from us or see more from us, you can follow us on Instagram at BYO Book Podcast or on TikTok at Bring Your Own Book Podcast. Remember, you should be happy for the winter solstice and until next time, see ya!

Kelly (47:10)
See ya!